Topping off CAT fluids. ELC and hydros.

[fastline]

I need to top off these fluids in a CAT excavator. Not sure what the hydro oil even is in the machine. Book has a very wide range. In the past at a very large company, we used Delvac 15w40 for everything. Specifically because it was an engine oil and good hydro fluid. Wonder what else can work? Are other engine oils such as Rotella good for this? The oil in the machine seems to have a reddish color.

I would estimate I probably need 10gal right now. Probably from some previous hose replacements.

As well, the ELC coolant is just a touch low. I know many here just reach for CAT fluids but I never find them competitive in smaller qty. This is the only machine we have with ELC. I don't feel like I need a bunch in stock.

 

[Coaldust]

Cat ELC is the same stuff as the Texaco/Havoline, Shell and Chevron Delo extended life products. Often, it comes out the same spigot at Equilon Enterprises LLC in Houston Tx.

 

[fastline]

Near as I can tell, CAT has an "EC-1" spec for their coolants? Probably a little backwards as CAT probably wants a special endorsement, but I was trying to figure out if there were different additive packages for heavy engines?

 

[JLarson]

We run the Shell/Rotella ELC and engine oil.

 

[Coaldust]

Yeah. There are enough HD coolant additive packages and OEM requirements to keep a guy studying for a week. Plus, they change like the wind (Cummins). Cummins had heartburn over Equilon.

Those ELC products I mentioned do meet the Cat ELC-1 requirements.

 

[JLarson]

Right!

All the while farmer bob is pouring walmart universal green in everything lol

 

[Coaldust]

Coolant chemistry is largely misunderstood in this industry. Even journey-level Techs that have been doing this for years. Admittedly, ELC has made it easier on the truck side.

JOAT, OAT, HOAT, NOAT, HDNN,... OMG
Holy Cow, then consider all the colors. Some Techs still think color has something to do with coolant identification. Sometimes it does.

Then, Bobcat thinks Propylene Glycol is a good idea. Let’s dare to be different because we can.

 

[Coaldust]

Farmer Bob doesn’t have a chance. What the hell, green conventional was good enough for grandpa, it’s good enough for me.

 

[fastline]

Fair enough on coolant. Let's move to hydro oil. I tend to get more picky when I have very expensive piston pumps as opposed to lazy vane pumps.

I can't seem to get a good answer on shear and breakdown of multi viscosity oils in hydro applications. It is well known that multi weight oils break down. A multi is made from the first # oil stock, then viscosity modifiers are added to reduce thinout at higher temps, but eventually you are left is your base weight oil! So that 15w40 will end up just 15w oil. I'd like to know when that might occur and maybe much slower not being in an engine? I know I have run many things on straight 30 for this reason alone! Gives a little piece of mind I guess. Not saying I won't run 15w40, but like to learn more.

 

[fastline]

Coolant chemistry is largely misunderstood in this industry. Even journey-level Techs that have been doing this for years. Admittedly, ELC has made it easier on the truck side.

JOAT, OAT, HOAT, NOAT, HDNN,... OMG
Holy Cow, then consider all the colors. Some Techs still think color has something to do with coolant identification. Sometimes it does.

Then, Bobcat thinks Propylene Glycol is a good idea. Let’s dare to be different because we can.

I seem to recall GM played with this many years ago? **** would precipitate and block everything if exposed to air. IE, air was in the system. I still just can't get over the cost of coolant!!! We used to toss it, now its like "OK, it cost more than oil, how 'bad' is it really? Cool, put it back in"

 

[Coaldust]

You won’t find any modern info about 15w-40 EO in hydraulic applications because that ship sailed away 20 years ago. API FK-4 and CK-4 engine lubes are totally different products than the 15W-40 we grew up with.

Cat HYDO is easily available or cross referenced to a number of majors. Easy-Peazy.

 

[Coaldust]

Fastline,

For sure. There was a steep learning curve with DEXcool and the DHA-2 additive (which is a plasticizer). Talk about destroying plastic radiators and intake manifolds.

 

[Nige]

FWIW I am of the opinion that use of 15W/40 engine oil in anything but an engine is a holdover from the "one size fits all" days that started in the 70s/80s where it was a case of recommending some sort of powertrain oil in power trains (in Cat machines it was TO-2 then became TO-4), and some sort of engine oil (most people used 15W/40) in everything else.

As far as I'm concerned that might have been fine in the days of API CC/CD oils but nowadays with all the modifiers/improvers/add packages in CJ-4/CK-4 oils, far longer intervals between oil changes, plus today's requirement to cope with ULS fuel, makes engine oils today a totally different animal compared to what they were 40 years ago. About the only thing that's the same is the viscosity and I'm not even sure about that......

Today's Operation & Maintenance Manuals speak of "Preferred Oils" and then of "Approved/Second Choice Oils". It's unfortunate that O&M Manuals for older machines don't get updated to the latest recommendations.
Recommendation for Preferred oils for Hydraulic systems are Cat HYDO or Cat bio HYDO.
Approved oils fall into two groups. The first group is all Cat Products; MTO, TDTO, or DEO. The 2nd groups is commercial oils; commercial hydraulic oils, TO-4, bio hyd oils that meet Cat BF-2 spec, or engine oils meeting Cat ECF-1a/ECF-2/ECF-3 specification.

A couple of interesting side notes.
The minimum permitted viscosity for any commercial oil used in most hydraulic systems and in most Cat hydrostatic transmission systems is 6.6 cSt at 100 °C (212 °F) measured by ASTM Standard D445.
Engine or TO-4 classification oils used in hydraulic systems should have a mininmum zinc additive content of 900ppm.

Considering the price of the pumps in a Cat excavator I would be running straight weight HYDO or TO-4 in the hydraulic system. I would also shy away from anything higher than 10W unless it was specifically recommended for the operating conditions. If we could use 10W in the tropics with no issues it ought to be just fine for the continental US.

 

[fastline]

So...since a few here are savvy to oil specs, I was checking on HYDO oil and was surprised that Mobile does NOT have a comparable, only citing that their oil "does not claim a 6000hr change interval". To me, it would seem that is burried in the HYDO spec to "claim 6000hr intervals" in which CAT may know more about what their oils are running in? Or is there actually more to the oil spec? I just find it odd that as people commonly buy this by the drum, bigger names are not offering that spec? Or does this come around to the fee imparted by CAT and they just don't want to pay it?

The price I got for HYDO is $20/gal. I have not been able to compare to others. I don't need to go save $1/gal, but I don't like to be strong armed into specific fluids either. All excavators effectively run the same gear. Komastu, Deere, etc. What do they use?

 

[Coaldust]

All the majors offer product that meets the Caterpillar HYDO specs. Funny you mention Mobile, which has the contract today for supplying the Cat branded product.

Don’t get wrapped around the axle with marketing claims. Sure, Caterpillar says 6000 hours service intervals. That’s only if you use their SOS program and follow their contamination control protocol.

The other majors offer products that will provide 6000 service intervals if you monitor it and practice contamination control. Dirt and heat kill hydraulic oil. Not hours.

Here is the deal. If you purchase a correctly speced hydraulic oil and it doesn’t perform, your oil distributor will make it right. It’s a highly competitive biz.

My local Mobile distributor is on allocation. All their bulk is going to the Ft. Knox Mine. I could probably get a pail or two. Sure couldn’t get a tote. I only mention that because many brands of hydraulic oil are tough to source at the moment.

 

[Coaldust]

Cat dealers move a lot of lube product. They can be very competitive with packaged product. Like pails and drums.

Talk with your local jobbers. Consider purchasing your hydraulic oil in bulk instead of pails. You could probably find a product that would work in all your machines. That’s a huge money and resource saver.

 

[Nige]

Don’t get wrapped around the axle with marketing claims. Sure, Caterpillar says 6000 hours service intervals. That’s only if you use their SOS program and follow their contamination control protocol.

That only appears in the small print. Nowhere does it say "6000 hour changes" without having some caveats.

The other majors offer products that will provide 6000 service intervals if you monitor it and practice contamination control.

Thereby making their product subject to just the same conditions as those applying to Cat fluids.

As Coaldust stated, Mobil produce the oils for Cat. They come out of the same plant(s) as Mobil's own product. that is not to say that there are not some minute differences in the Cat oil formulation, simply to differentiate it from the oil company product. It will all be in the additive package I suspect.

 

[Nige]

Some of the Cat small print will probably be in this document. There is a later version in SIS but it's not downloadable as a complete document. I did not look too closely as to what the differences are between this version and the online one.

https://caterpillar.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10513033

 

[fastline]

That is SO damn funny! I actually questioned the Mobile guy and he got defensive. I said, "so you're telling me you do not have a comparable to CAT HYDO because they have a 6k change interval and you cannot touch that? So their oil is superior to yours? Or are you by chance making it for CAT?"

Sure, I get the who deal on actual change intervals. Which reminds me that I should get an OS and see if we need a booster. I am not sure if the Zinc package will go away in a hydro system or not. I don't think I have ever actually changed hydro oil unless there are obvious visual concerns. Water, dirt, etc will all leave their signs.