Tips and tricks on flushing and replacing coolant on cat 320c.

[Mountainmover]

So, I changed the coolant on my caterpillar 320c after running it with dawn dish washing detergent in it to clean for 30 hours.

The problem is......well...it is supposed to hold 7.9 gallons of coolant. I could only get maybe 6 gallons out of it. I could only add 6. I did a 50/50 ratio of water and red coolant.

So...I couldn't get the whole amount flushed....nor add new back.
I kinda blew air through it with compressor.

I undid the hoses in many places.

See when I refilled....I loosened the coolant sample fitting on the coolant tube by the valve cover to let air out as I was refilling. Then I cranked machine and let run for an hour and watched the gauge. It barely climbed at all. Turned on the heater with no fan. Anybody got a cool way to completely drain and refill the coolant? I guess I could think of a few ways to do it...but I'd like to learn a new trick. Please.

I was in a hurry so I just gave up at dark. I guess a couple of gallons stayed in the block..... The machine needs to run in morning so I gave up on my creativity.

By the way....the dawn dish washing detergent...well...it foams so much AFTER draining and replacing that it was aggravating when pouring in new coolant.
The fins in my radiator have a little white fuzz on it....not bad...but a little. Dawn didn't fix that. Should I run a flush chemical? I don't wanna harm it...or mess up the heater core. And what additive would be good to run to prevent cavitation and corrosion? I usually use napa cool etc.....

Thanks

 

[Nige]

You need a non-foaming detergent to clean a cooling system. Anything that can be used in a dishwashing machine is good, Cascade is the one that generally comes recommended (other brands are available) ...........

The Refill Capacities in the manual are generally a guideline. In your case I'd suspect that the relatively large difference between the manual number and what you drained/added could be what's in the heater circuit...?

If you use a 50/50 premixed ELC as a coolant (needs to meet ASTM D4985 or D5345 IIRC) you don't need any additional additives

 

[rsherril]

Nige, I take it you prefer the Extended Life Coolants. I'm getting ready to do a flush on a Deere 6059 w/2500 hrs. Haven't purchased the coolant yet but have been pricing them. Of course the ELC run more than conventional w/additive, but not that much and I'm only dealing with six gallons of the stuff, half of which would be distilled water. My question would be how difficult is it to get a complete flush of the old stuff as I would assume that it would contaminate a ELC if some remained. I am leaning going with the old style plus additive because of this.

 

[Nige]

I've been a believer in ELC ever since we did some field testing about 15 years ago that showed up tremendous differences between the performance of ELC and anti-freeze mixed with Supplemental Coolant Additives (SCA) regarding the internal condition of engine parts. These photos show 2 identical engines, one operated with ELC versus the other with SCA. The ELC engine has twice the hours (10,000) and was still running when removed versus the SCA engine which failed from cooling system related issues at 4,800 hours.



Generally ELC is pre-mixed 50/50 with distilled/de-ionized water, at least AFAIK. Certainly what we buy is, so you just dump it straight in. The problem as I see it in buying a concentrate and cutting it 50/50 with water is that you have little or no control over the quality of the water used, and IMHO the makeup of that water is as critical as the chemical package in the ELC.
If I was planning switching to ELC from "conventional coolant" this is what I'd do: -

1. Drain the system.
2. Fill with clean water, run for 5 minutes making sure the heater valves were wide open. Drain again.
3. Throw some Cascade or other non-foaming detergent in with clean water and run for as long as it takes to get right up to operating temperature and maybe a bit more (TC stall is your friend)
4. Drain and flush with clean water (running the engine each time) as many times as it takes to get rid of every last trace of the detergent.
5. Fill with ELC, run the engine, and bleed air from the system as necessary.

 

[Mountainmover]

Wow. That extended life coolant did the trick.
What are the preferred brands? Cost per gallon?

I had my heater valve on....but what is try trick to totally get out the old fluid and replace with new fluid? I am assuming you just can't really? Unless you blow air through the system and even then the thermostat and heater valve issues my be the culprit? I guess a few runs with just water is all you can do without taking things apart....?

Yes, now cascade sounds right. But I guess I got confused and didn't think to far own my own because I remember I saw on a different thread where you (nige) had told me dawn dish washing detergent. And I guess I didn't use my own judgment and realize dawn makes a powder that doesn't foam? I don't know much about washing dishes! Lol.

Hopefully the foam won't hurt my machine?

 

[rsherril]

I'm amazed at the amount of pitting on the left, (SCA protected ?), cylinder wall. I understand that the pitting is caused by tiny bubbles forming and imploding when the cylinder wall flexes in the diesel engine combustion process. That is why frequent testing is required. I know that I have been negligent here and now that I've seen the pits I can imagine what happens when one of those pits breaks through. Ouch. Sounds like ELC is the only way to go for me.
My instructions also included a new thermostat and suggested that I remove the old one while I'm circulating the non foaming detergent through. I'm thinking that without a thermostat in the temp might not come high enough to do the job right. Makes sense on the drain/flush part though. Sounds like I better schedule a half day or so to do this right.
Thanks for the help and pictures.

 

[Nige]

MM - THe foam from whatever is left of the detergent shouldn't hurt your machine, it'll just be a PITA every time you pull the radiator cap off. The best way I know to empty a heater system is to disconnect both heater hoses at the valves located on the cylinder block and blow compressed air into one hose. Make sure the other hose is pointing away from you while you do this...... To then remove all the trapped air out of the system in order to fill it with new coolant usually involves leaving the return line from the heater back to the engine disconnected (or at least loose) while you run the engine.

RS - The "pitting" as you call it is actually cavitation. Effectively the coolant right next to outside wall of the liner gets so hot that it suffers localized boiling and as the bubbles explode they scour small amounts of metal off the liner. Although the liners do flex a bit in operation that's not what causes the cavitation. At the end of the day the mixture of water and additives is that the water has the heat transfer capability in that it can get the heat away from hot areas fast, the additive package is there to condition all types of metal from iron to aluminium and everything in between, as well as prevent the whole thing freezing if the ambient temperature gets low enough.

Caterpillar sell an ELC, but as usual with everything branded with the Big C it's not cheap. We use a product called Final Charge ELC made by an outfit in Texas (I think) called Old World Industries. It's formulation is a close as you can get to Cat's own ELC without infringing any patents or whatever exist. You've probably heard of their Peak brand http://www.peakhd.com/product-lines/Final-Charge/noat-extended-life-coolant-antifreeze/

 

[Mountainmover]

Zerex extended life coolant ???

MM - THe foam from whatever is left of the detergent shouldn't hurt your machine, it'll just be a PITA every time you pull the radiator cap off. The best way I know to empty a heater system is to disconnect both heater hoses at the valves located on the cylinder block and blow compressed air into one hose. Make sure the other hose is pointing away from you while you do this...... To then remove all the trapped air out of the system in order to fill it with new coolant usually involves leaving the return line from the heater back to the engine disconnected (or at least loose) while you run the engine.

RS - The "pitting" as you call it is actually cavitation. Effectively the coolant right next to outside wall of the liner gets so hot that it suffers localized boiling and as the bubbles explode they scour small amounts of metal off the liner. Although the liners do flex a bit in operation that's not what causes the cavitation. At the end of the day the mixture of water and additives is that the water has the heat transfer capability in that it can get the heat away from hot areas fast, the additive package is there to condition all types of metal from iron to aluminium and everything in between, as well as prevent the whole thing freezing if the ambient temperature gets low enough.

Caterpillar sell an ELC, but as usual with everything branded with the Big C it's not cheap. We use a product called Final Charge ELC made by an outfit in Texas (I think) called Old World Industries. It's formulation is a close as you can get to Cat's own ELC without infringing any patents or whatever exist. You've probably heard of their Peak brand http://www.peakhd.com/product-lines/Final-Charge/noat-extended-life-coolant-antifreeze/

So.... I have been using zerex extended life coolant. Is that on part with the cat product? So I assume the only downside to me using this is that I used tap water.

 

[Nige]

If it's the 50/50 premix one then yes it meets all the relevant specs for an ELC. http://www.valvoline.com/products/brands/zerex/antifreeze/43

 

[rsherril]

Found the brand, Final Charge Global ELC 50/50, at Walmart, so for $100 I set myself up for a day of "getting to know your machine" fun. It took about four complete flushes after the Cascade treatment to get clear water back. Put about three engine hours on warming it up after each refill. Tried the blow side of a shop vac. to get the last bit out, but don't think that was very effective. Ended up with putting in 5 gal. of new in a 5.6 gal. capacity, (according to the tech. manual), cooling system. As the heater box is a replacement for the factory one, I think that is pretty close to right. I'll be watching it closely for awhile now.
A good workout for me with the up, down and around pulling plugs, putting them back in filling it up and repeating again and again and again... Those monkey bars I played on as a kid were good training for motor graders. I suppose I'll sleep better after these aches and pains subside.
Thanks for the advice and tips.

 

[Nige]

Surprising how much crap comes out of what you thought was an "OK" cooling system ain't it ........??