Tiltrotators and Today's Marketplace

[ZTS Plant]

Hi guys, i have just bumped into your forum by accident and was surprised by the interest in Engcon tiltrotators. I have 5 of the things and would buy nothing else!! I bought my first in 2004 and have just traded it in against a new one, I got 70% off the new one with the trade in!!!! These things hold their value!! Have you tried to buy a 2nd hand one? I can tell you it is virtually impossible! I tried to get one as I have just bought another JZ140. The Engcon is an essential piece of kit on this machine in my opinion.

The only advice I could give the guys who are pondering is to get one and if it doesn't work out or the almighty Skanska, that you all seem to worry about, has a problem with it, sell the thing! If you buy it right in the first place like I did off the men in Scotland you will sell it in a heart beat.

In todays hire market you need something to set you out from the crowd, this is the tool that has done it for me! Good Luck Lads!

 

[Sweden]

It seems that you guys are already "engconized", so please tell me why arent the consept taking off like it has in Scandinavia.

 

[AtlasRob]

It seems that you guys are already "engconized", so please tell me why arent the consept taking off like it has in Scandinavia.

£££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££


My problem and I believe the same for a few of us considering the tilty thing is getting paid for it.

I am well aware that in Scandinavia to arrive on site without one would be like arriving on site here with a 13t exc and only one bucket and that was pinned on, no Q hitch

If I did my own contract work I would have bought one 5yrs ago. As I only do hire work the tilty thing would make me stand out ONCE I was on site, the problem is competing against the hire companies that put machines out on hire at silly rates just to keep them working.
The works managers and forman want us owner operators but the penpushers want to know why we are a few pounds an hour dearer. Now add the cost of a tilty thing and we are not competetive.
Everybody loves my oscillating bucket, but try and get the buggers to pay extra for it :Banghead

On a different note. Its a small world, Daniel S was one of the folk I met at the UK show.

On edit, Welcome aboard ZTS great to have your input.

 

[ZTS Plant]

Hi Rob,
the first time I bought one of these things I took a leap of faith I must admit, not saying you should, but now I get the work where I don't have to compete with the rest of the guys operating 13t machines for £18 to £20 per hour!!

It will get to the stage when you get one (I say WHEN not IF!, because like the nordic regions it will happen!) that others will have to follow your lead. If they are following you they are always one step behind you! (As my mother used to say)

Cheers,

James.

 

[ZTS Plant]

P.S.

I have met that guy Daniel that you have met at the UK show. Nice guy!

 

[Sweden]

You are right AtlasRob, as we have our own jobs on our own sites the time/material savings are money in our pocket. The other side when we work on hours is more difficult... I have to admit that we got the extra Kronor in the beginning but today it is just impossible.
. (so i am glad we where among the first with tiltrotators) Today the biggest financial reason for the investment is the fact that on hourly jobs youre always fist in and last machine out.. a couple of extra attachments like forks, blades etc doesnt cost much in relation to the extra hours you get.
We need that to survive through the winter, my machine is parked up from December until March.

 

[Eddiebackblade]

Had my quotes back for the Zaxis 160 to fit the full proportional set up, complete with the hydraulic hitch top and bottom of the rotator and the all important Engon grading bucket, not forgetting converting my 3 other buckets.
I know the currency situation, but it was certainly a shock!
The Zaxis 160 falls between the EC15 and EC20 models, but as it is fitted with a medium dipper and 20 tonne quick hitch already I would have thought it would require the EC20 model at an additional cost.
I also priced an EC10 to fit an 8 tonner and this seemed very expensive.
However I am still convinced it is the way to go for me personally, and it is very useful to hear from actual users like ZTS. (Welcome ZTS your input is much valued:thumbsup)

Just a thought, why do we not see the 'Steelwrist' version of Tiltrotator over here?
I have checked their website and they claim more tilt angle than Engcon etc etc, however the bit that made me take note was their claim to have been adopted by Volvo in the Scandanavian region as preferred fitment.
I would have thought this was a pretty solid endorsement in the spiritual home of the Tiltrotator.
Are they any good/best? or are Engcon blessed with a much larger marketing budget for an inferior product?

 

[AtlasRob]

..... I have to admit that we got the extra Kronor in the beginning but today it is just impossible.
.......Today the biggest financial reason for the investment is the fact that on hourly jobs youre always fist in and last machine out.. a couple of extra attachments like forks, blades etc doesnt cost much in relation to the extra hours you get.

I can see the logic in getting in early, as you say its the norm for you now, everybody has to have one so its a level playing field again. ( in theory anyway )
I agree 100% on having the right extras, the best investment I made was my block grab. The extra hours I got through the winter placing packs of kerbs and path edgings more than paid for it.
It makes a change to have made a correct decision

Had my quotes back for the Zaxis 160 ............
I know the currency situation, but it was certainly a shock!
The Zaxis 160 falls between the EC15 and EC20 models, ........
Just a thought, why do we not see the 'Steelwrist' version of Tiltrotator over here?
.......the bit that made me take note was their claim to have been adopted by Volvo in the Scandanavian region as preferred fitment.
I would have thought this was a pretty solid endorsement in the spiritual home of the Tiltrotator.

I know how you feel, EC15 or EC20 ? I have the same problem but will go with the 20, the extra is small for the peace of mind. I am not the most gentle with a machines.

Thats an intresting question you raise over Volvo. I would take it rather like Miller with supplying Cat with the bug. Somebody struck a bloody good deal I suspect .
My opinion of Miller ................. not worth printing. :Banghead

 

[Sweden]

Had my quotes back for the Zaxis 160 to fit the full proportional set up, complete with the hydraulic hitch top and bottom of the rotator and the all important Engon grading bucket, not forgetting converting my 3 other buckets.
I know the currency situation, but it was certainly a shock!
The Zaxis 160 falls between the EC15 and EC20 models, but as it is fitted with a medium dipper and 20 tonne quick hitch already I would have thought it would require the EC20 model at an additional cost.
I also priced an EC10 to fit an 8 tonner and this seemed very expensive.
However I am still convinced it is the way to go for me personally, and it is very useful to hear from actual users like ZTS. (Welcome ZTS your input is much valued:thumbsup)

Just a thought, why do we not see the 'Steelwrist' version of Tiltrotator over here?
I have checked their website and they claim more tilt angle than Engcon etc etc, however the bit that made me take note was their claim to have been adopted by Volvo in the Scandanavian region as preferred fitment.
I would have thought this was a pretty solid endorsement in the spiritual home of the Tiltrotator.
Are they any good/best? or are Engcon blessed with a much larger marketing budget for an inferior product?

We had a look at the steelwrist and that was in the early days when they where just launched, interesting concept i must say. At that point they had a huge advert in a construction magazine but no physicall products...
It is of course different today, Steelwrist is getting more accepted but the rumor says that the last change was that Volvo went in with some financial support to save them go under. I guess it is important for the manufacturers and customers to have some competition.
Still i have my doubts on the new upcomers, not only because we have Engcon's, The company itself is familyowned and we dont mind paying the extra percent that might cost, they are here to stay and the way they handle warrant issues and stuff is just fantastic. I am not sure but i can not find a UK service place for the Steelwrist?

 

[ZTS Plant]

Just had a look at the Steelwrist website, looks good but I think I will be sticking to what I have! They dont seem to have a dealer in the UK (nothing listed).

I had an accident with a machine last year and the dealer here in Scotland took a ram from his demo machine and fitted it for me on a Sunday at a standard price! Got to my job first thing Monday morning!! Priceless service! Thats why I will be sticking to what I have.

 

[AtlasRob]

. Priceless service! Thats why I will be sticking to what I have.

You cant argue with that :thumbsup

 

[Eddiebackblade]

Nice to hear of some real old fashioned service from a dealer, it's all too rare these days and I'm certain it will have you going back time and again.
ZTS could I ask is the dealer JCC? as this is who I'm hoping to use to supply and fit mine.

Had to laugh at those guys sending out 13tonne machines for £18 to £20per hour, they are seriously overcharging:beatsme
We have a joker with a Daewoo 140 who is keeping the local Farmers very happy at £14.50 per hour if they supply the diesel:beatsme.

 

[joispoi]

Nice to hear of some real old fashioned service from a dealer, it's all too rare these days and I'm certain it will have you going back time and again.
ZTS could I ask is the dealer JCC? as this is who I'm hoping to use to supply and fit mine.

Had to laugh at those guys sending out 13tonne machines for £18 to £20per hour, they are seriously overcharging:beatsme
We have a joker with a Daewoo 140 who is keeping the local Farmers very happy at £14.50 per hour if they supply the diesel:beatsme.

They´ll keep that up until they need repairs. I can´t see much money being set aside for routine maintenance at those rates.

 

[ZTS Plant]

It's a small world Eddie, I got a phone call from Oliver at JCC today to ask what was going on on the internet You got to keep these guys on their toes!! I believe you spoke to him at some stage today. He's a good lad and I buy all my stuff from him! Always push him for a bit of a deal, he is good for it! The installations that these guys do are really good! They always leave a machine as if they haven't been there.

On the subject of machine rates, sometimes you wonder why these guys are putting machines out for the money they are! Sometimes you can be a busy fool!!! :Banghead

 

[Hendrik]

Considering that in the UK a pound is equivalent to a dollar here (or in other words a pint of beer costs 4-5 quid over there and 4-5 dollars here) they cannot be making money charging 18-20/hour. That's barely operators wages. At first I automatically converted it back to Oz dollars and thought 40 dollars/hour is a bit low for a bigger type of machine but could be managed if...........but then I remembered from my visit to the UK that things are priced accordingly. How much is the price of Diesel there at the moment?

 

[AtlasRob]

........... they cannot be making money charging 18-20/hour. That's barely operators wages. ................. How much is the price of Diesel there at the moment?

Too right they are not making any money, putting machines out at silly rates only drags the market down lower. Its always been a problem here that the industry is its own worst enemy in that respect :Banghead

As for the price of fuel :beatsme luckly I dont have to buy it, the contractor supplies .
White derv ( highway use ) is over a £1.06 litre but red diesel for plant use will be a lot cheaper.

 

[Hendrik]

Too right they are not making any money, putting machines out at silly rates only drags the market down lower. Its always been a problem here that the industry is its own worst enemy in that respect :Banghead

I was going to say having people coming into an industry who are only interested in making a quick buck (or quid) is bad for the industry but it don't look like they are in it for the money.
Which makes me wonder what exactly they are up to? I am no business man but know enough to know that you have to make a reasonable profit to survive and a good profit to grow a business.
Barely breaking even doesn't cut it, what happens if a engine blows up or an hydraulic pump grenades?
I guess it happens that a large company is willing to take a short term loss on operations to force their competitors to shut up shop, is this the case here or are there just too many small operators fighting over a small pie?
Anyway I figure sub standard rates will lead to sub standard work and safety issues.

 

[AtlasRob]

...............
Barely breaking even doesn't cut it, what happens if a engine blows up or an hydraulic pump grenades?
I guess it happens that a large company is willing to take a short term loss on operations to force their competitors to shut up shop, is this the case here or are there just too many small operators fighting over a small pie?

I feel the problem at the moment stems from the people/companies that went mad buying plant when times were good, they now have an abundace of plant sitting doing nothing. As a result folk panic as repayments still have to be made so they put the machines out to earn anything they can in order to make those repayments without a thought to the wear and tear that the machine is incurring.

As I remarked to a friend who runs around 20 pieces of assorted plant, its easy for me to preach about rates etc, etc but I have only myself and one machine to keep, not twenty and a dozen or so operators whos families all need jobs.
He is now competing for work with those people that just want thier machines out of the yard :Banghead

 

[RoadDoc]

Sounds like desperation or ignorance.....ointhead

If I was completely out of work, I would do a very small job (i.e. a day's work) for a rediculus price if I thought I could get more work out of the company once they saw what I could do.

It never worked out very well. :Banghead

 

[AtlasRob]

Sounds like desperation or ignorance.....ointhead

It never worked out very well. :Banghead

Good to hear from you RoadDoc, thought maybe you opened up this can of worms then sat back and smiled