Tilt bucket on U17 Kubota

[oceanobob]

Got the U17 as it has those expando tracks to allow access into back and side yards. For its size it has quite an ability.

Two questions: is a 36" tilt bucket too big and how does the tilt cylinder work off of the factory hydraulics which are able to run a hammer?

But one thing about the mini ex (which is missing from the backhoe world) is what we call a "squeegee". A squeegee is a piece of cutting edge or other flat strip steel on a bucket to help quickly trim the grade to exact elevation such as when prepping base for paving with concrete or asphalt. The one for the backhoe is 4' wide, I have seen em 6' wide. The backhoe outriggers are adjusted to add a slight angle or compensate for the angle - either way the sqeegee will do a decent task readily.
But the mini excavators dont have tilt side to side - thus was considering purchasing a tilt bucket as the contrivance to act as a squeegee.
Smallest one I can find is 36" wide and the big kubota bucket that we got with the machine isnt even close to this size. I figured it the cleanup bucket volume is too big I can refrain from filling it, and I could also put a 45 degree blockoff baffle in each corner of the bucket (to make it more like a tapered scoop) to reduce the volume.
OR
Get a tilt mechanism and put on a curved blade only to save the dead weight.....

The latter idea isnt as useful but will have its place.

Any idea how the tilt ram works with the boom hydraulics given these are only known by us to work an attachment like a hammer breaker? I have read a lot about how to install a thumb and it appears the factory hydraulics isnt quite the solution for a thumb unless some form of control valve with a relief port (some words about crossover and volume issues etc etc) Seems the tilt ram might fall into the category of the ram for the thumb.

The hydraulic motor style swivels offer more articulation (like 180 degrees) whereas the tilt done with a ram seems to be 45 each way for 90 degrees of motion. Maybe these radial hydraulic contrivances have non biased flow (ergo no displacement issues such as a ram) and is more suited to the hydraulic system on the machine / application. But not sure if these are made small for this little machine.

Having an independent swivel that fit any bucket or maybe remove the swivel for routing digging....this seems to be have more forethought.

 

[Tags]

I believe there may be a ball valve you turn to change the flow from tank rerun when using the hammer to flow when using a thumb or tilt bucket. I usually just use the blade to tilt the machine if I am cutting or filling to match a grade or need to get level to spread stone for a slab.

 

[oceanobob]

I have read the manual from the machine and I also have the factory workshop manual: I previously didnt notice but there are some additional words in the workshop manual about a 1 way or a 2 way valve (EU version). I dont know exactly what is meant by EU so, I will look under the floor board as it is not too far from the pattern changer valve according to the component layout sketch diagram. The valve (I have yet to find) is called a Change Valve for the Service Port 1 way 2 way according

Will update, thanks for the suggestion about such a valve.

 

[Tones]

According to the brochure they have bi directional plumbing for the ancilary attachments so all it may take is turning some taps

 

[Tags]

I also know I had a 161-3' not a super series, it had no valve to switch when running a hammer, I ran one on it and never had an issue, it also had a thumb. I checked with the Kubota dealer before running the hammer and they said there was no valve to switch, take the lines off the thumb and hook the hammer up and away you go, they had tons of rentals that ran hammers and stated they never had an issue that's the way they were designed to operate.

 

[oceanobob]

A look under the floor board shows no sign of the ball valve, no sticker label or other. Thus the section in the manual showing the EU version is quite likely not applicable to this machine.
In the workshop manual, there are two hydraulic diagrams: one that is id'd as EU and the other that is id'd as PP (Pan Pacific). The PP diagram does not show the ball valve but the EU diagram does.
The drawing for the control valve shows the same image(s); no difference there.

"More to Follow"

 

[oceanobob]

Have concluded the ball valve offers a direct connection from the service port to the reservoir in lieu of passing that flow through the main valve bank. Which said passageway would be closed when the service port foot operated control valve is in the neutral position.

Here is what I have concluded:

• Hooking a implement with a two way ram (tilt bucket or thumb or clamshell bucket) to my existing service port hydraulics isnt "by the book" because good hydraulic practices such a relief settings etc wont be in effect. Would it probably function - yes. But would it be over pressure protected - prolly not. Cushion affect on the thumb (bucket override) with an adjustable setting to keep from damaging delicate items such as wood beams etc would not be included in such an installation. Bent rams and broken parts could be included in such an installation.
• If I had that tee in the service port line with a ball valve, I could use the other service port as a hydraulic supply with no directional control or relief control, just mode "available / not available" - but with that I could add in a implement control valve with the fifth port for the relief valve (internally routed) and said valve would probably be controlled electrically. Said ball valve with the tee in the return line would provide a implement protection relief pathway even if the service port valve was in the closed position. Now that I see how they did the tee, this helps with installation ideas for the additional valve.

As to where to put this new valve, that is something to figure out. Seems like it should be readily removable and a plug for the electric. Other ideas involve putting a couple tees at the service port quick connect and keeping the valve installed. The quick connect for the hammer would be size X and the quick connect for the two way ram would be size Y to help assure proper installation by helpers and workers. Machine is occasionally operated by myself and one other helper.
The one thing about that OEM (so named here: kubota-EU tee) tee with ball valve idea is to not forget to operate it, 'cause leaving it closed could put the system into an unprotected situation where the circuit relief is blocked if that foot pedal happens to also be in the neutral position.

I can see how all these features being built into the system on the machine makes this a somewhat challenging puzzle to figure out. Said puzzle being now easier to solve because I know what to go after.

Many thanks!

 

[Tags]

I think if you look up parts relating to the hydraulic valve for the auxiliary hydraulics on messicks site you will find that Kubota sells relief valves to go into the auxiliary hydraulic valve section IF it doesn't already have them. it may be easier to do that than all the plumbing you were talking about. Maybe the only plumbing that would be beneficial would be to install a ball valve with a free return to the tank for the use of the hammer and add the relief valves if you don't have them. Most of the late model Kubotas came with the relief valves, chances are,if it came with a thumb from Kubota it already has them.

 

[oceanobob]

One look into the bowels of the machine to add features to the service port control valve gave me a bit of a queasy feeling. Then I got the flashlite and the more I saw the more I thought about re-installing the floor board.

Temporary 'concept stay' regarding trick hydraulic valve with all those features:
The mfg of the tilt bucket assured me the rather mundane yet high pressure valving on the service port will be adequate for the tilt ram which has been spec'd to endure the possible pressures.....not thinking the machine could exercise forces beyond the hydraulic. And the last time we spread gravel for some flatwork the machine didnt help as much as it could since the available buckets had teeth and the subtle slope under the machine affected the possible accuracy. Tilt Bucket ordered the other day.

Why the need for precise grade?
Please Note: the usual 'excavator for hire' is grade work to plus minus a tenth (which is a net variance of around 2-1/2"), but since we do the concrete and it is well over $100 per cubic yard plus pump, we must be able to quickly and efficiently achieve 'perfect grade'. Same game for asphalt patches. Handwork can accomplish the task If the trim out material is fill sand, but I don't care much for how it moves under foot and won't support the rebar chairs etc. And road base must be invoked for asphalt. Subgrade friction has a contribution to concrete cracks - and yes I am not fond of cracks. Yes I know: it gets hard and it cracks. Being as selective as I am about "concrete on grade": this means I would really like a squeegee on a hydraulic stick. I already have one on the TLBackhoe but the mini is usually the machine for these smaller sized projects. With all this in mind I am looking forward to the bucket smooth edge, the tilt, etc. If it is too big I will keep it less than full or put baffles in it - will report back on how it works.
Maybe it will help with general finish grade.....we'll see.

As to the Control Valve: the full featured control valving is going to have to be figured and ordered to go with the thumb. Have not had much use for the thumb as of yet. Machine usages so far:
1) Trenching for pipes and conduits
2) excavating and recompacting especially in tight quarters such as an addition to a building
3) breaker on flatwork removal, old pipe guards and fence posts
4) grading for new flatwork (sidewalks, ADA ramps, etc)

A question: any reason why "the return line ball valve direct to the sump" is recommended for the hammer? Seems that would end up being a dual travel path - unless the ball valve was a three way valve?

 

[ITW]

I've installed an 2 way aux hydraulic on my little Kubota u10 to run an tilt bucket.
And you work a lot quicker with an tiltbucket instead of tilting the machine in the blade to grade.

On the U10 the lines are ready in the bom, but that is with an one way hydraulic for an hydraulic breaker, so I had to install one line to the other port on the hydraulic manifoild.
Se my video how I did it.

 

[ITW]

And I needed to add an extra free flow to the tank so I could run my hydraulic breaker, so that's an good idea to do in the same process.
I didn't so my breaker wouldn't run good going true the hydraulic manifoild...