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Tier 4 and DPF / DOC woes

wlhequipment

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
489
Location
Sheridan, CO
Occupation
Mechanic
Well, it happened a little sooner than I thought, but here we are. I have my first tier 4 engine in the shop. A Perkins 854 in a Terex PT110 track steer. The customer has been calling me for probably a month or more telling me his Terex is acting funny and can I help him over the phone. Each time, the conversation ended with "ok, I'll bring it in". So just last week, while I was on a trip to visit family in Chicago, he calls, on the jobsite, putting in soil nails, and he's got the drill buried 10' in, and the engine's deader than 4:00. Dude is in a complete panic. What happened is, his turbo crapped out, and all his induction tubing was "sucked in" like a kid trying to drink a thick milkshake though a thin straw. I told him his engine is tryin' to breathe, but something is blocking the way. I told him to disconnect the hose between the engine and the intercooler to get that thing running just enough to back out the drill, and get it on a trailer. Don't mess around, just take the hose off, and get it on the trailer pronto, and shut it down. Which he did, and now it's here.

So yeah, turbo is toast. I mean just ground to bits, no rebuild is going to do it, he needs new. No biggie there, a couple grand and he'll be back and running. Except. The DOC / DPF is FULL of oil. I mean black sooty oil just dripping out of it. Nasty. I knew right away he has been running this for months with a failed / failing turbo that had just been sending oil through the engine, and the DPF. The bad news doesn't stop there. An oil soaked DPF might not be able to be cleaned. I've already been turned away by 2 local shops, and am now sending it to a place in Iowa, who says they can clean it. For about a grand anyway. Fortunately they will be able to tell me one way or the other before they charge me, so there's that at least.

The worst part is Perkins wants like $5K for a new one. FUG. Total suckage there pal. If this shop can't clean it, he's gotta buy new. Does anyone know of any other options I missed? So instead of being a $3500 turbo replacement, this could end up costing him close to 10 grand. Unreal. Is this tier 4 stuff worth it? Geez.
 

Bls repair

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2017
Messages
1,612
Location
S E Pa
Occupation
Equipment operator,mechanic
I’ve worked with a lot of companies like that. I was running an old 9 started out ok,about a hour in to the day started to see engine oil coming out of radiator pressure relief. I told the boss ,he told me to keep running it and keep an eye on it. The hood was covered with oil,
I refused to run it any more and parked it. Next day they came to move it didn’t check oil or water,fired it up took engine out . What happened was engine oil cooler went bad ,when running oil pressures kept antifreeze out of pan when I shutdown the antifreeze went into the pan.
 
Last edited:

AzIron

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
1,541
Location
Az
I have heard of much less totaling a filter but if your already looking at 3500 for a turbo then 5000 for the filter is not bad it sucks but what really sucks was there was mo need for that to happen I am surprised the machine could perform or that no one was concerned about the oil usage
 

wlhequipment

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
489
Location
Sheridan, CO
Occupation
Mechanic
These guys make me make a living. If all of my customers were good about maintenance, I’d be broke. I LOVE these guys! This is a just about daily occurrence at my shop. I only post about the ones that stand out. This is my first exposure to a tier 4 engine. It just occurred to me that I only specified the DPF for replacement. I didn’t say DOC, so that 5 grand might only be part of it :) That busted turbo is going to be PRICEY!
 

wlhequipment

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
489
Location
Sheridan, CO
Occupation
Mechanic
Well, what do ya know, the guys who cleaned the DOC / DPF called me today and said it's done, and are sending it on back. That just saved my customer untold thousands. It's almost like this isn't reality, and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I'll stay optimistic for now.
 

rondig

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
517
Location
fort macleod alberta
Occupation
excavation
Yep had close to same problem...filter was only slightly plugged....but caused enough back pressure to literally cook the turbo...it was cherry red...quite expensive to fix....it was caused because we rarely got the machine hot enough working it...it was in my yard loader with pallet forks...short run times...not enough rpms....and boom major expense...now we rev the cramp out of it and leave it running most of the day...really defeats the purpose of tier4 lol...burning way more fuel...but it runs...i miss the old engines....i actually bought a chinese loader for yard use with no tier 4....so far so good.
 

apetad

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2012
Messages
384
Location
Leander, Texas
Occupation
Compact Construction Equipment Sales
Well, it happened a little sooner than I thought, but here we are. I have my first tier 4 engine in the shop. A Perkins 854 in a Terex PT110 track steer. The customer has been calling me for probably a month or more telling me his Terex is acting funny and can I help him over the phone. Each time, the conversation ended with "ok, I'll bring it in". So just last week, while I was on a trip to visit family in Chicago, he calls, on the jobsite, putting in soil nails, and he's got the drill buried 10' in, and the engine's deader than 4:00. Dude is in a complete panic. What happened is, his turbo crapped out, and all his induction tubing was "sucked in" like a kid trying to drink a thick milkshake though a thin straw. I told him his engine is tryin' to breathe, but something is blocking the way. I told him to disconnect the hose between the engine and the intercooler to get that thing running just enough to back out the drill, and get it on a trailer. Don't mess around, just take the hose off, and get it on the trailer pronto, and shut it down. Which he did, and now it's here.

So yeah, turbo is toast. I mean just ground to bits, no rebuild is going to do it, he needs new. No biggie there, a couple grand and he'll be back and running. Except. The DOC / DPF is FULL of oil. I mean black sooty oil just dripping out of it. Nasty. I knew right away he has been running this for months with a failed / failing turbo that had just been sending oil through the engine, and the DPF. The bad news doesn't stop there. An oil soaked DPF might not be able to be cleaned. I've already been turned away by 2 local shops, and am now sending it to a place in Iowa, who says they can clean it. For about a grand anyway. Fortunately they will be able to tell me one way or the other before they charge me, so there's that at least.

The worst part is Perkins wants like $5K for a new one. FUG. Total suckage there pal. If this shop can't clean it, he's gotta buy new. Does anyone know of any other options I missed? So instead of being a $3500 turbo replacement, this could end up costing him close to 10 grand. Unreal. Is this tier 4 stuff worth it? Geez.
Tier 4 is E X P E N S I V E ! ! ! The eco folk think EVERYONE should pay for the 5% additional reduction in emissions that tier 4 from tier 4 interim causes. Homeowners, municipalities, cost to build streets the list goes on and on...They think money grows on trees I guess...I have had NO luck increasing MY rates, even though these costs have skyrocketed.
 

rondig

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
517
Location
fort macleod alberta
Occupation
excavation
What raising rates???such rebellion will cause ripples....shhhhhhh....lol..our rates locally have decreased because everyone that quit or got fired in the oil patch apparantly bought a mini, skid steer, and dump trailer lol....i am lucky...my clients are loyal and i kept same rates....but i am guessing my rates are staying the same for awhile
 

Birken Vogt

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,305
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
Tier 4 is E X P E N S I V E ! ! ! The eco folk think EVERYONE should pay for the 5% additional reduction in emissions that tier 4 from tier 4 interim causes. Homeowners, municipalities, cost to build streets the list goes on and on...They think money grows on trees I guess...I have had NO luck increasing MY rates, even though these costs have skyrocketed.
What raising rates???such rebellion will cause ripples....shhhhhhh....lol..our rates locally have decreased because everyone that quit or got fired in the oil patch apparantly bought a mini, skid steer, and dump trailer lol....i am lucky...my clients are loyal and i kept same rates....but i am guessing my rates are staying the same for awhile

There is NO WAY we are going to come through this without severely raised rates. Once the fired guys from the oil patch have to pay for a set of injectors they can't do themself and a DPF they can't do themself. They will be gone from the business. It can only go on so long.
 

rondig

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
517
Location
fort macleod alberta
Occupation
excavation
That and they suck at what they do...too fast....crappy finishing...just want the money.. i hope they are gone soon....60 dollars an hour is too low
 

AzIron

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
1,541
Location
Az
We are at 100 but there are guys charging 75 and I know they are not making money but they probably dont have insurance either

As for maintaining equipment no one cares when they buy now and pay later it's just like getting paid it's getting harder to get paid timely people want you to carry 60 and 90 days with no interest it's crazy we are not banks

One thing is for sure if things are still this busy 18 months from now the rates will have gone up cause everyone I know is going to new iron
 

wlhequipment

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
489
Location
Sheridan, CO
Occupation
Mechanic
I don’t know how anyone can charge 75 and make money. I’m at 95, and most of my bucks come from parts sales. I charge 30% markup on everything. I’m going up to 100 soon
 

AzIron

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
1,541
Location
Az
People that charge 75 an hour are just paying themselves to have a job they have no real business sense as to cost and most of them have no employees doesnt matter weather your a mechanic shop or a small excavation company when you pay yourself just to have a job you wont make it in the long run

Same can be said for people charging to low of a rate for equipment work just to get more work you lock yourself into people expecting you to be cheap and it's hard to raise your prices customers of quality is much better than quantity
 

wlhequipment

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
489
Location
Sheridan, CO
Occupation
Mechanic
Surprising nobody, this was a boomerang. It came back on Monday with engine in derate, black smoke leaking out of all exhaust connections, barely running. Yep, DPF plugged solid with soot. I cracked it open, let the soot out, started it up, and it puked out a big old black cloud, and actually ran right. I took it up to a "real" diesel shop, Diesel Forward here in Denver, a local shop who has the software to talk to it. I'm stuck in the stone age, as far as that stuff goes. He says he's using OEM software, not anything aftermarket like Texa. Anyway, this is what I got:
1 active diagnostic code
4 active event codes
6 logged event codes

The 1 active diagnostic code is J1209-4 exhaust gas pressure below normal (126 occurrences)

Active events - High differential pressure and low oil viscosity (the low oil viscosity is probably because the oil change interval was never changed. I don't think that's relevant here, so I'm ignoring it for this discussion)

He didn't mention what the logged events were.

They read the DPF status and it said "regen needed highest level" Soot load is at 100G (I don't know what the G means, but it's a unit of measure). They said normal load is 30G.

So, this all makes sense, sort of. The soot was building up at the DPF causing a high differential pressure, and eventually the ECU saying it needs a regen. As far as I know, this is what it's supposed to do. It looks like there was a small leak at the air pressure hose on the inlet side of the DPF. The line is a little loose, so I'm sure a little air got out of there, setting that code (J1209-4). BUT - even if it had a leak, that air pressure was building. So much that it unseated other exhaust unions. The "high differential pressure" event shows the ECU knows soot is building up. Along with the "regen needed - highest level" on the DPF status.

The $10K question is, why didn't a regen happen, or did it happen and it didn't work? Shouldn't the machine go into regen by itself, when it sees these events? OR, did it actually try a regen, and it failed? That's really the core issue here. Is the root cause that the DPF didn't respond to a regen, and needs to be replaced, or did the ECU not even attempt a regen, and the root cause is more that process and not the DPF at all?

Since my report didn't include any log information, I asked the shop for a more detailed report, and am waiting for a response. I would assume if the ECU did a regen, or at least tried to to a regen and failed, that would be logged.

Man, I need to get the software. I dropped the ball on that a month or two ago, and I really need to pick it back up, and run with it. I can't get the OEM stuff, but I can get TEXA. I'm in denial about it I guess :)
 
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