This can't be real life...

[frickenbored]

Hey everyone, it's been a while...for anyone who remembers I had the insanely long thread about my Case track loader not running:

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/case-350-crawler-kicking-my-butt.77013/

Well it doesn't run again...and I'm looking for advice.

So I have a 1978 Case 350 track loader with a 188d diesel 4cyl and a roosa master injection pump. Last summer I had the pump rebuilt and the engine ran better than ever before, I put maybe 10 hours on the machine before I parked it in my pole barn for the winter. In November I ran some diesel 911 anti gel and stabilizer additive through the fuel system, parked it, drained any water, and then shut the fuel off (my downfall). In Jan we got about a foot of snow so I plugged the block heater in over night, then with the help of the intake heater I got the engine started and after a few seconds of running it died, like a moron, I forgot to turn the fuel back on and the fuel filters were now empty, I went back in the house in shame.

Now that it's warmer outside I filled and bled the filters, bled the feed line to the pump, and bled all four injector lines. I have fuel squirting out of all 4 lines but it again refuses to start. This is exactly what it was doing before I had the pump rebuilt.

So I'd like to get some opinions...did my rebuilt pump just take a crap again? When I reinstalled the pump from the shop I didn't even have to bleed the injectors, it fired right up as soon as there was fuel feeding into the pump.

It runs on ether, I had to try.

 

[old-iron-habit]

You can get some fuel out at the injectors even if there is some air in the system. It won't have pressure to run until you get all the air out. I would take a inner tube and cut a hole in it slightly smaller than you fuel fill. Stretch it on and hose clamp it over the fuel filler and if there is a vent other than your removed fuel cap, plug it. Put some air into the tube to partially expand it. Dont overdue it. 3/4 shape is more than enough pressure. It doesn't take much to lift the fuel thru the system. Now you can go thru the system from the tank to the injectors bleeding at each point possible until you get a clean fuel flow at each step. Bleed each filter, on to the pump, then the injector lines at the injectors. Bleed in sequential order from the tank closing each bleed point as you go. Good luck and let us know how you do.

 

[Dave Neubert]

Is it smoking at all when you crank it

 

[frickenbored]

Well, I spent the last couple days bleeding the fuel system with a fine tooth comb, there definitely isn't any air in the system. It's doing exactly what it did before I had the pump rebuilt. I have fuel squirting at all four injectors but not enough pressure to fire the injectors.

Is it smoking at all when you crank it

No, I have just a tiny puff of smoke most likely oil burning off the cylinder walls.

This weekend I'm gonna take the pump back off. I bought a seal kit and a service manual. I've watched every video I could find and read tons of forum posts. If you want something done right you gotta do it yourself. I'm pretty sure I know all the parts not to touch, they should all be adjusted properly because it was bench tested before I got it back. Hopefully I find something obvious.

 

[old-iron-habit]

If it is white smoke check your air cleaner just to be sure you are getting air. My Detroit gave me fits when it would not start that time when my air intake got clogged with dead kangaroo mice that had nested in the intake. Easy check.

 

[Dave Neubert]

I would have the injectors tested first or at least pull one out and hook it to the line to see if it is popping. I did have a customer last summer that had bad fuel and it turned to some kind of acid and ruined a new injection pump in about 10 hours. when you pull the return line off is it brown in color

 

[thepumpguysc]

The rebuild didn’t take a crap..
It simply sat w no fuel inside the pump and the pumping plungers and/or the metering valve stuck..
To which there is no magic additive that will fix it..
It’s gotta come off and cleaned..

 

[Cat977]

Do the simplest stuff first! Pump or drain fuel into a clean glass jar say a 1/2 cup, 1 cup. Check the color and smell. Let it settle a bit. Do you have crap on the bottom of the jar.

 

[frickenbored]

If it is white smoke check your air cleaner just to be sure you are getting air. My Detroit gave me fits when it would not start that time when my air intake got clogged with dead kangaroo mice that had nested in the intake. Easy check.

I actually have the whole air cleaner disconnected, the intake manifold is wide open.

I would have the injectors tested first or at least pull one out and hook it to the line to see if it is popping. I did have a customer last summer that had bad fuel and it turned to some kind of acid and ruined a new injection pump in about 10 hours. when you pull the return line off is it brown in color

I replaced all four injectors last summer when I had the pump rebuilt. I had the same idea the first time around, before I had the pump rebuilt I took all four injectors out and mounted them upside-down, the pump fired all four injectors with a nice spray pattern, but the pump wasn't building enough pressure to overcome the compression of the engine. The fuel out of the return line is clear green.

The rebuild didn’t take a crap..
It simply sat w no fuel inside the pump and the pumping plungers and/or the metering valve stuck..
To which there is no magic additive that will fix it..
It’s gotta come off and cleaned..

This is what I'm thinking/hoping for, something to be stuck or cracked or something. All of the important adjustments should be correct because the engine ran fantastic after the rebuild, the pump was bench tuned, so as long as I don't touch any of that stuff and just do a basic tear down I should be ok.

Do the simplest stuff first! Pump or drain fuel into a clean glass jar say a 1/2 cup, 1 cup. Check the color and smell. Let it settle a bit. Do you have crap on the bottom of the jar.

I'll take a sample but there shouldn't be anything in the fuel, before I put the pump back on I drained and cleaned the tank, blew out the feed and return lines, and replaced the filters. The fuel that's in it is less than 8 months old, only thing I did was add some anti-gel additive before I parked it for the winter.

I just have some crappy luck...

 

[Cat977]

I agree it doesn't sound like a fuel problem. Just to be sure. How long was the old fuel in it? Have you ever used a biocide like the Farm & Fleet Power Services Bioclean. You did the right thing getting the old fuel out and even cleaning. I use a maintenance dose in all my fuel because I don't run my machines much. If I thought that there was a possible problem I would put in a kill dose and run the s..t out of it to mix it up and coat the tank. When I get fuel delivered I put Bioclean in first so it get mixed up good by the big nozzle. I run the tank till its empty, the tank is tilted forward and I drain at the low spot, say ¼ to ½ gallon. I fill to the top. Just to be sure if there's a screen before the filters pull it, any black stuff is bio crap. pull an injector to see if it's firing well. Then your down to pulling the pump I believe.
Best of Luck

 

[frickenbored]

Ok so now I'm really confused...I finally went to pull the pump today but after 20mins of trying to time the pump and timing gears to TDC I realized that the pump was 180° off. So I pulled the pump gear off, turned the pump shaft 180° so the timing marks were lined up then reinstalled the pump gear and timed the pump to 8° BTDC via turning the pump body. As soon as I cranked it over it started spewing smoke and then started right up. It sounded like it was running on 2 cylinders at first, after turning it off and starting it a few more times it sounds normal again, I'm assuming it was purging some air out of the injector lines. It still sounds a little choppy at higher rpm but again I think that's a little air that needs to be purged, I can't let the engine run too much because the radiator and front cover are out. But now it starts on the first crank everytime.

I ran this tractor all summer last year and then parked it for the winter...how does a gear driven timing system move 180°? Specifically the fuel pump drive shaft.

 

[Cat977]

I wouldn't run the water pump without water.

 

[frickenbored]

I wouldn't run the water pump without water.

The belt is off

 

[Tinkerer]

Is the woodruff key in the IP shaft ?
Sorry, but I had to ask.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Lol.!!’ That reminds me of a customer who called and raised HolyHell after a pump rebuild..
It ran before y”all touched it, now got yer azz’z up here and fix it.!!
And I mean NOW.!!
It sure didn’t sound right when I turned the key.?? I think I kept doing it to drown out this a-hole yelling at me CONSTANTLY..
I pulled the front cover to look at the pump drive gear.. hmmm??
I could see the cut for the key in the gear... BUT.. it didn’t match the cut in the end of the drive shaft..
I asked Mr, know it-all, are u SURE u aligned the key w the cut in the gear.??
He said in a matter of fact tone..the key y’all put in that shaft was the wrong one and wouldn’t go in that gear.. so I took it out.!!!
I asked him if he still had it, and he did..
I took the pump off, installed the key.. put the pump on and wiggled the gear up on the shaft and torqued the nut..
Hooked up all the rest of the goodies and with half a turn of the motor it fired-up..
The only thing he said was, you musta dun somethin while I wasn’t lookin..what an a-hole.!!
I looked at’m and said, expect a bill in the mail, nice doing business with you..(lol)

 

[frickenbored]

there is a key in the pump shaft and it fits in the pump gear perfectly. The spring and pin that keep tension on the pump shaft against the front cover were installed. The pump gear has a hairline crack in the length of the key groove, but even if somehow that opened up enough to let the shaft and key spin 180 degrees I figured I would see some damage on either the pump shaft, the key, or the pump gear and I've found nothing. I've started it up maybe 10-15 more times with the front cover off and every time its been perfect now. I'm reluctant to put the machine back together without knowing what happened in the first place.

 

[frickenbored]

Lol.!!’ That reminds me of a customer who called and raised HolyHell after a pump rebuild..
It ran before y”all touched it, now got yer azz’z up here and fix it.!!
And I mean NOW.!!
It sure didn’t sound right when I turned the key.?? I think I kept doing it to drown out this a-hole yelling at me CONSTANTLY..
I pulled the front cover to look at the pump drive gear.. hmmm??
I could see the cut for the key in the gear... BUT.. it didn’t match the cut in the end of the drive shaft..
I asked Mr, know it-all, are u SURE u aligned the key w the cut in the gear.??
He said in a matter of fact tone..the key y’all put in that shaft was the wrong one and wouldn’t go in that gear.. so I took it out.!!!
I asked him if he still had it, and he did..
I took the pump off, installed the key.. put the pump on and wiggled the gear up on the shaft and torqued the nut..
Hooked up all the rest of the goodies and with half a turn of the motor it fired-up..
The only thing he said was, you musta dun somethin while I wasn’t lookin..what an a-hole.!!
I looked at’m and said, expect a bill in the mail, nice doing business with you..(lol)

I gotta say I'm glad I never called anyone about that pump because I would have felt like a real dope right about now. Once the timing was right that engine fired right up, I didn't bleed anything, and I know that the pump body was empty because I had the timing cover open with the fuel shut off. That's a damn good little pump.

Also does anyone know a good online Case parts dealer? I was buying everything from that Coleman website but they are no longer a licensed Case parts distributor. If I can find that pump drive gear I think I'm going to replace it.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Dale Weiss @ tractorstuff..
He’s always busy so cut him a break if he doesn’t get right back to u..
U should probably have your serial number handy, just in case ..
Tellm I sentcha.

 

[frickenbored]

Dale Weiss @ tractorstuff..
He’s always busy so cut him a break if he doesn’t get right back to u..
U should probably have your serial number handy, just in case ..
Tellm I sentcha.

Cool, thanks!


So I'd like to get some opinions, I took a picture of the crack on the gear and a pic of the IP shaft. I don't see any damage to so I really don't think it spun, but I still want to replace that gear for peace of mind, even though it's proving difficult to find.




Obviously I know that the crack is no good. I saw it when I originally replaced the pump but I couldn't quickly find a replacement and I figured its probably been like that for a long long time. Plus I figured together with the tapered fit and the torque of the nut it shouldn't be a problem. I still don't think it was the problem because the nut was still tight and I had to use a puller to remove the gear.

 

[Cat977]

The cutting of the Key left what is called a stress risers in the Gear. The shaft and gear left just round would not have any. When they put cuts in cement they create stress risers in it. Then it will probably crack in those cuts. On some of the high Quality keyway cuts on usually big machines the corners on the keyway will be round to prevent cracks. I believe someone over tighten the nut on the shaft. Lots of force pushing outward on the gear hub. The hub is weaker the crack starts there but will likely continue out to the edge of the gear. If you end up wanting to use this one. I recommend taking a 1/16" drill to stop drill this crack. I would guess you can't see the crack yet on the back side. I use stuff that Welders use to find cracks. Use good light like a good sunny day at noon outside. Make a cross at the end and center of the crack. This is when I First spray a Dye Penetrant. Use a die or small grinder to make a flat spot at the center of the cross. If I had a Dye Penetrant Spray again. Wipe off then Spray Developer, it will reveal the end of the crack. If you don't have those goodies reconnect the cross. Just outside the cross Center punch it. Use a Drill Press and Drill All The Way Through the Gear.
Best of Luck