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There's no making me happy - this has nothing to do with machinery.

Spud_Monkey

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Your six
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It would cost $100k to get power here, I paid about $15k so far in what I got. Yes will need batteries in 10 to 15 years, but take your electric bill and times it by 120 and see if you beat $2500 for the battery. Will have to buy the whole set up again in 20 to 25 years which puts me around 65 years old, I doubt in 25 years from then I will or wife will be around. Reevaluate our situation around 70's on what is next of whether to buy another system or not.
Yes I hear about widows in the woods, but how many of them had a husband who built up a place worth selling to sell out and move on in town. Most can't make it here anyways as is with grid power much less solar in their 30's, I foresee wife not doing it if she outlives me in her 70's.
 

skyking1

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Nov 3, 2020
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7,855
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washington
At my location, power is $0.078/KWH
10,000 KWH = $780
If I put a 9.9KW array up at my location, the PVwatts calculator yields 10,019 KWH

It's hard to pay for a 9.9KW array at only $780 a year. You'd want it to pay off in 10 years, and I can't get it together for $7800 on the roof.
22 panels = $4400 and 22 Enphase microinverters =$4400
The big issue is the rapid shutdown requirements per ICC, it adds another layer of hardware and cost.
A firefighter needs to be able to shut down the array with the press of a button on the side of the house.
Those microinverters have that ability.
This has to happen at the solar module level, not at the inverter in the basement, etc.
 
Last edited:

Spud_Monkey

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Your six
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At my location, power is $0.078/KWH
10,000 KWH = $780
If I put a 9.9KW array up at my location, the PVwatts calculator yields 10,019 KWH

It's hard to pay for a 9.9KW array at only $780 a year. You'd want it to pay off in 10 years, and I can't get it together for $7800 on the roof.
22 panels = $4400 and 22 Enphase microinverters =$4400
The big issue is the rapid shutdown requirements per ICC, it adds another layer of hardware and cost.
A firefighter needs to be able to shut down the array with the press of a button on the side of the house.
Those microinverters have that ability.
This has to happen at the solar module level, not at the inverter in the basement, etc.
Look for this and flip the red handle, all is disconnect from the array.
Screenshot 2024-02-08 at 19-26-17 Midnite-Solar-mnpv-Disco__57219.png (PNG Image 1280 × 1951 p...png
 

skyking1

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washington
that works for you. when the array is on the roof, firefighters need to shut it down at the solar panels. Roof mounts suck that way.
Ground mounts are much less BS, but I don't want to look at my panels :D
 

Spud_Monkey

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that works for you. when the array is on the roof, firefighters need to shut it down at the solar panels. Roof mounts suck that way.
Ground mounts are much less BS, but I don't want to look at my panels :D
That can be mounted anywhere. What goes in comes out through it through a series of breakers with however many strings you have. There is multiple configurations and is rated for outdoors.
mnpvhv16-dltl_collage_hiRes.jpg
 

skyking1

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washington
that's not an RSD system for a roof mount according to the building codes. The wires from the panels can zap you anywhere, when the building is on fire. RSD has to happen at the solar panel itself.
They put it in the National Electrical Code (NEC).
It is a royal pain in the arse. The microinverters can do it. If a person wants a string inverter, then they need to put a device at each panel to shut it down.
 

Spud_Monkey

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that's not an RSD system for a roof mount according to the building codes. The wires from the panels can zap you anywhere, when the building is on fire. RSD has to happen at the solar panel itself.
They put it in the National Electrical Code (NEC).
It is a royal pain in the arse. The microinverters can do it. If a person wants a string inverter, then they need to put a device at each panel to shut it down.

Within 1' of the array boundary per NEC, Section 690.12(B) and not at each panel.
 

skyking1

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Within 1' of the array boundary per NEC, Section 690.12(B) and not at each panel.

(C)Initiation Device. The initiation device(s) shall initiate the rapid shutdown function of the PV system. The device “off” position shall indicate that the rapid shutdown function has been initiated for all PV systems connected to that device. For one-family and two-family dwellings, an initiation device(s) shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building.

Up on the roof is not a "readily accessible location."
They want it mounted the same as the house power disconnect, where they can walk up to it.

Chapter 1, definitions:
Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means.
 

Spud_Monkey

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Up on the roof is not a "readily accessible location."
They want it mounted the same as the house power disconnect, where they can walk up to it.

Chapter 1, definitions:

Then the NEC Section 690.12(B)is nullified since it's impossible to just walk up to it
firefighters need to shut it down at the solar panels.:D
and then it wouldn't need to be shut down at the solar panels since it is guarded by elevation

Thus then NEC, Section 690.12(B) from 2020 reverts back to the 2017 NEC's of within 10' of the array boundary to be possible

Just as a shut down at each panel would go against rapid shutdown. Max was 6 shut downs in 2014 NEC's which then in 2017 reverted to 1.
 

Camshawn

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Langley BC
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An interesting discussion…..always something to learn here at HEF. The disconnect for each panel at the source makes sense from a firefighter perspective and they write the standards ( NFPA) that go into the NEC/CEC.
 

Spud_Monkey

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An interesting discussion…..always something to learn here at HEF. The disconnect for each panel at the source makes sense from a firefighter perspective and they write the standards ( NFPA) that go into the NEC/CEC.
Technically when you have panels in series is as such of having batteries in series, take negative or positive off and the circuit is disconnected. I have 9 panels in series, if I need to make any major adjustments I take one line off and the array is dead.
 

chidog

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Jun 21, 2021
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852
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kent, wa
Putting solar panels on your shop or dwelling roof is asking for a fire. Period.

Also if a person had a roof plastered with them how can the fire department do their job?

Only way to have those stinking things is an array in the yard some place.

There are plenty of these on the net.

 

Spud_Monkey

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Putting solar panels on your shop or dwelling roof is asking for a fire. Period.

Also if a person had a roof plastered with them how can the fire department do their job?

Only way to have those stinking things is an array in the yard some place.

There are plenty of these on the net.

Idiots trying to get much as power as possible without dabbing into high voltage will cause problems such as this. My panels capable of pushing 600 plus VDC is more safe on a roof than (which I wouldn't want them there based on maintenance) system half it's voltage pushing twice as much amperage. If you don't understand this and trying to put panels on your roof then you will be the next news story of such along with other variables.
 

wlhequipment

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Sep 3, 2017
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489
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Sheridan, CO
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Mechanic
It's definitely happening. No issues mounting to a shingle roof, no issues for a firefighter :). Half the homes on my block have em. With the $6-7K tax incentives, ROI is 4 years, just from that. Entire system is guaranteed for 20, even the installation. If my system goes down or gets covered by snow, I feed from the grid. That's not going to happen very often though. Around here, winters are mild. Whatever power I don't use, feeds the grid, and I get paid. That's not going to be much either though. My "pay" there is just from saving $1K a year on power bills. $22K for the whole solar shebang. The roof is a different story. Roofer says my roof was badly damaged from a hail storm we had last spring. He's going to send me a report, and I'm sending that to my insurance guy. Maybe I can get them to throw down on the roof. Time will tell.
 

HarleyHappy

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Joined
Sep 30, 2020
Messages
521
Location
So NH
Occupation
Welder/Mechanic
If you think your ROI is going to be 4 years with only paying 1k in electricity a year, I got a bridge to sell you.
You still have an electric bill, just not KW, which you probably still will depending on size and usage.
I looked into it quite hard and was looking at 22 to 24 panels and being an electrician, I could do it myself and cost was 16.5k within reason.
The subsidy does help but I don’t believe the numbers are there for a normal usage house.
The ROI gets a little better with an electric vehicle and with split units, electric stoves and such.
 

Spud_Monkey

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Damn I needed that laugh this morning, thanks. Sheridan CO which is Denver that gets more snow than here. Yeah that ROI is going to be a long lost memory in a distance based on multiple factors, but it's a damn good laugh.
 
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