The Ultimate Medium Dozer?

[.RC.]

If there has been a peak in excellence in Caterpillar of longevity , cost , simplicity it must surly have been with the D4D , D6D ,D7G , D8K and the D9H . I had not forgotten the D5 , just don't see it measured up .

You still needed to find someone with the expensive hydraulic pullers to touch the final drives on those models. That design was out of date when Cat was still plugging along with them. International had planetary final drives and a track frame pivot shaft not connected to the final drives out for decades before Caterpillar borrowed that idea.

 

[epirbalex]

You still needed to find someone with the expensive hydraulic pullers to touch the final drives on those models. That design was out of date when Cat was still plugging along with them. International had planetary final drives and a track frame pivot shaft not connected to the final drives out for decades before Caterpillar borrowed that idea.

That's true about the puller's , its the only job I have had a mechanic do on any of my dozers in nearly 40 years , bugged me . I think though that the pullers will still be used on the old D7's in fifty years when they dig the grave's for the new model D7E , such is progress .

 

[born2push]

We're aware that we have several major equipment manufacturers watching our board, I thought it might be interesting to hear from the members what they feel the ultimate dozer would be.

Let's consider a D5-7 sized machine, they are what I see most often around my area. If you were designing a dozer, what features would you add? It could be as simple as a seating position change or as crazy as some new electronic gizmo that would automatically perform some function. Put all your ideas here, who knows, maybe you'll see some of them incorporated in a future dozer.

After this thread has run its course, we'll move on to another type of machine.[/QUOTE

We're aware that we have several major equipment manufacturers watching our board, I thought it might be interesting to hear from the members what they feel the ultimate dozer would be.

Let's consider a D5-7 sized machine, they are what I see most often around my area. If you were designing a dozer, what features would you add? It could be as simple as a seating position change or as crazy as some new electronic gizmo that would automatically perform some function. Put all your ideas here, who knows, maybe you'll see some of them incorporated in a future dozer.

After this thread has run its course, we'll move on to another type of machine.

I was the proud operator of a new D7r many back in 1998. I was annal about taking care of it.bear in mind i am not current with what new machines come with. But I think it would be helpful if they had a display simular to my chevy silverado that tells how much oil life is left, and maybe warn the operator if the tracks are out of adjustment, or something is not working properly. It would also help to see how efficient you are operating and have the computer score you! Cat and other manufacterers should have and app that makes it easy to order parts and remind when services are needed. I am currently a truck driver but still have a passion for heavy equipment. I am biased in favour of cat dozers and loaders because they are the product of many years of research and improvements.

 

[old-iron-habit]

I was the proud operator of a new D7r many back in 1998. I was annal about taking care of it.bear in mind i am not current with what new machines come with. But I think it would be helpful if they had a display simular to my chevy silverado that tells how much oil life is left, and maybe warn the operator if the tracks are out of adjustment, or something is not working properly. It would also help to see how efficient you are operating and have the computer score you! Cat and other manufacterers should have and app that makes it easy to order parts and remind when services are needed. I am currently a truck driver but still have a passion for heavy equipment. I am biased in favour of cat dozers and loaders because they are the product of many years of research and improvements.

Sounds like spending more up front money for something that a decent operator would not need. Easy to check the oil hours written on the filter when you grease it and check oil. A operator would soon know the tracks are out of line by the wear marks on the rollers and other undercarriage parts. You see this when you clean the tracks. What would you do if the dash told you the tracks are out of alignment? There is no adjustment screw. Bent dead axles do not fix themselves. Make them with less BS options and lessen the problems is my idea of a better machine.

 

[born2push]

I don't think there will ever be an ultimate dozer but from a mechanics perspective I can think of some things I'd like to see in the current production units.

I think there needs to be some kind of winching mechanism that works from inside the cab for the belly pans. I don't know how many hundreds of hours I've put in pulling a pan to change a hose and then jacking or stringing come alongs and chains underneath to get the thing back up. And on that vein why isn't there some kind of adapter that I can use on the machine for dragging tracks on with. Something on the blade maybe or can be mounted on the hard nose so I don't have to use another machine and a 150 feet of chain or cable.

I'd like to see equalizer bars with a center pin mechanism that doesn't have to be jacked in and out with a forty ton hollow ram. I'd also like to see a lot more useful life out of the bushings and pins. I do like the cannon style track frames on the big machines. I hate the suspended undercarriages because they add tons of cost and complexity and I haven't yet figured out yet how they make the dozer more productive.

I want to see a hard nose that bolts on. That stupid pin setup they use now is guaranteed to work loose between 5,000 and 10,000 hours. Usually I don't hear that there is problem until the fan catches the guard and tries to stuff it through the radiator cores. The fix requires pulling the front of the machine apart, welding the bores, machining them and installing all new pins and bushings. I never had probems with the old D8 and D9 dozer hard noses coming loose. This issue I feel is one of those engineering for failure things previously mentioned.

I have seen swivel seats in dozers and found that they get broken with about twice the frequency of standard seat suspensions. I would like to see seats designed for really big people. I really like the air suspended seats.

I do like the new electronic diagnostics in the Cat dozers because they tell you what is wrong and I don't necessarily have to buy a $1,000 service manual or hook up to the internet to figure it out. On the other hand I really don't like that I can't make the engine perform to my specifications or that I have to call out a dealer wrench at a $1,000 a day and still don't get the thing running and still have to pay or they shut off my parts supply.

That's all I can think of for now but I'm sure there are better minds out there that can improve on my list.

Manufacterers need to look

Sounds like spending more up front money for something that a decent operator would not need. Easy to check the oil hours written on the filter when you grease it and check oil. A operator would soon know the tracks are out of line by the wear marks on the rollers and other undercarriage parts. You see this when you clean the tracks. What would you do if the dash told you the tracks are out of alignment? There is no adjustment screw. Bent dead axles do not fix themselves. Make them with less BS options and lessen the problems is my idea of a better machine.

Sounds like spending more up front money for something that a decent operator would not need. Easy to check the oil hours written on the filter when you grease it and check oil. A operator would soon know the tracks are out of line by the wear marks on the rollers and other undercarriage parts. You see this when you clean the tracks. What would you do if the dash told you the tracks are out of alignment? There is no adjustment screw. Bent dead axles do not fix themselves. Make them with less BS options and lessen the problems is my idea of a better machine.

Sounds like spending more up front money for something that a decent operator would not need. Easy to check the oil hours written on the filter when you grease it and check oil. A operator would soon know the tracks are out of line by the wear marks on the rollers and other undercarriage parts. You see this when you clean the tracks. What would you do if the dash told you the tracks are out of alignment? There is no adjustment screw. Bent dead axles do not fix themselves. Make them with less BS options and lessen the problems is my idea of a better machine.

To start with the tracks are adjusted by tension. If they are too tight the pins rollers and idlers wear out faster. Cat started oil analysis back in the 1990's because you cant just rely on hours. As oil got more expensive it made sense to test it before changing 50 something gallons of transmission oil for example, on my D7r. If a $40k pickup can justify having fancy Technologies to aid in taking care of it then how much more an expensive dozer. Cat dont mind just selling you the parts as you know. I have been away from it for awhile but the undercarrage represents about 1/3 of the cost of maintaining a dozer. So track adjustment/ tension is crucial. Most under carriage wear happens when you are backing up because the tension is redistributed across the top sprocket and front idler. So it qould would more than pay for itself to have a built in analysis of oil condition/life and operator efficiency, like my pickup has.

 

[DMiller]

Machines are already Technology overloaded, need to get them simplified and less prone to failure of the 'Extra' **** then can use them when in a iffy stage just to get by for a day longer as weather or situations arise. Used to see old machines leaking like had bore holes in them or metal flakes showing in oil, owners fed them oil or had good operators that knew to back off some until that rainy day to repair where now a machine with tender electronics gets a weak solenoid or a bad signal due to a slight amount of corrosion and the iron lawn ornament will not work, not good.

 

[born2push]

Machines are already Technology overloaded, need to get them simplified and less prone to failure of the 'Extra' **** then can use them when in a iffy stage just to get by for a day longer as weather or situations arise. Used to see old machines leaking like had bore holes in them or metal flakes showing in oil, owners fed them oil or had good operators that knew to back off some until that rainy day to repair where now a machine with tender electronics gets a weak solenoid or a bad signal due to a slight amount of corrosion and the iron lawn ornament will not work, not good.

You fight until die but computers are already in just about every hight dollar machine and will only get more envolved. Agree or not the technology aspect will continue to advance. So may as well join them and figure out how to make it save you down time and money. I do understand that a good operator is the main key to preserving equipment. A display may not make sense but a simple warning light could makes you investigate what is happening a little sooner. It is a good conversation to have.

 

[born2push]

You can fight until you die but computers are already in just about every high dollar machine and will only get more envolved. Agree or not the technology aspect will continue to advance. So may as well join them and figure out how to make it save you down time and money. I do understand that a good operator is the main key to preserving equipment. A display may not make sense but a simple warning light could make you investigate what is happening a little sooner. It is a good conversation to have.

 

[DMiller]

When you need a pocket cheat notebook as to codes, coding and how to trip the code repeater then the machine is TOO excess electronic. Cat, Deere, Liebherr and the others all onboard with these high tech marvels of wasted mechanisms are seeing why that is in the loss of demand in foreign nations where the availability of mechanics able to diagnose such mechanisms is at a premium(IE S. AM, Africa, SE Asia) They do not take the surplus machines as was once done in the past where the power company boom trucks sit in lots with few buyers, the heavy equipment prices are dropping on the later machines while the older straight forward mechanicals are still demanding high dollar worn slick.

Technology may advance but where it is unnecessary the market dries up. The machines may become the wave of the future in the other lands as time moves on and the availability of the old machines also dries up but the prices will reflect that. Good friend and neighbor, excavator on the side just bought a used 953D, spent $55,000 to get a machine originally listed at $84000. Had been sitting on a lot for some time, had a fault code and a warning light that would not go out. Guy was tired of it not moving(two years ONE looker) and had been frustrated on the storage. Guy bought it, spent a little time ended up buying a reman drive joystick for $4600 and cleared the code. Took two weeks of winter spare moments to find the issue going thru every wire and all the resistance checks. He fully expects this monster to be a electronics mess as was never taken care of but was cheaper than buying a 953B in decent shape that is already almost 20 years old.

 

[John C.]

A quick question for the electronics suggestions. Just how do you think you could integrate some kind of electronics into the machine that could measure an undercarriage? Second thought is that oil analysis is not the be all that you are thinking and was really introduced in the marine industry as a way to check fluids in machines running super high hours with long amounts of time between shut downs. I saw that program started by the US government in 1972 when I was in the USN. It started long before then and Caterpillar had nothing to do with it back then. The issue was one of insurance. A main propulsion engine goes down, a ship might be stopped at sea with possible catastrophic consequences. The program was sold as insurance to those ashore running machines in large fleets and I know from a factual basis that just changing fluids on the manufacturer's specified intervals that the oil analysis program is for the most part a waste of money. With that in mind just how much money do you think it would cost to add that function to the capital cost of the machine? On the other side of the issue is you putting that information in the hands of the people who have every incentive to find ways to charge you more money? That is really what electronics and telematics is all about.

Put all that stuff on a running machine bouncing through the rocks and debris with a operator that doesn't speak english and tell me how long it might work and how much it will cost.

As far as warning lights and buzzers go I don't have enough fingers and toes to tell you how many times I've seen warning lights with black tape over them and buzzers disconnected or physically broken.

The computer revolution is all about replacing operators, not enhancing their abilities.

 

[John Shipp]

^Exactly

Give me bombproof, well laid out, durable machinery please future manufacturers. Less sensors, computers, sensitive wiring looms, built in nail varnish stations, abs, traction controls, ...

Operating since the 80's puts a foot in both camps, machines that had oil pressure gauges on the dash got replaced by a red bulb, then later with fault codes. I preferred the pressure gauge. Then there are the checks an operator should make including walking round machine having a look, saggy tracks are easy to spot, other components you can cast your eye over when pulling the dirt off the track frame each shift.

It baffles me that anyone would want more complicated technology stuck on when it all seems over the top already. I appreciate everyone has different views, but there doesn't seem to be choice, it's all super hi tech or nothing.

I'm all for the advances we've seen over the years in things like better braking, differential steering, pilot controls instead of long levers, powershifts etc.

Rant over

 

[StanRUS]

It baffles me that anyone would want more complicated technology stuck on when it all seems over the top already. I appreciate everyone has different views, but there doesn't seem to be choice, it's all super hi tech or nothing.

I'm all for the advances we've seen over the years in things like better braking, differential steering, pilot controls instead of long levers, powershifts etc.

Cat's Latest >MORE HIGH TECH< DOZERS
D6XE Electric Motor Drive w/diff steer

D6-D6XE All new replacement for D6T series
D6XE https://youtu.be/26wZnyD__vE

 

[DMiller]

Ever closer to a Battery or Fuel cell power source machine.

 

[old-iron-habit]

Cat's Latest >MORE HIGH TECH< DOZERS
D6XE Electric Motor Drive w/diff steer

D6-D6XE All new replacement for D6T series
D6XE https://youtu.be/26wZnyD__vE

A friend that is a Finning mechanic in was at the unveiling in Los Vegas last week and got to run one of these. He was quite pumped up about it, but then he is young enough to be very computer savvy.

 

[StanRUS]

A friend that is a Finning mechanic in was at the unveiling in Los Vegas last week and got to run one of these. He was quite pumped up about it, but then he is young enough to be very computer savvy.

2nd link

 

[DMiller]

I just still do not see the necessity to electrify a machine with an engine in it for motive power, is NOT like a train with need of multiple drive motors to make better tractive effort.

 

[John C.]

The D7E wasn't highly thought of when it came out and I only remember one that came into my area of Washington State. I don't know if it was ever purchased. There was also the issue of the electrical system retaining a charge after the engine was shut down. You needed to go through a procedure to discharge the electricity before working on anything or you could get slapped real hard for touching the wrong thing. As I recall the price of the D7E was nearly the same as the D8T. I have to wonder how much time the D6E has to achieve specified sales numbers before a decision is made to keep it or toss it out.

 

[DMiller]

Called Degaussing just as with the old PC screens, have to rid the residual stored charge or the incidental contact could flatten you. Started decades ago with Submarines and naval surface vessels with tons of electronics.

 

[John C.]

The ship I was on did degaussing to eliminate the magnetic signature of the vessel. It made it harder for torpedoes to know who you were and when to detonate. There was no static charge to drain away. The Cat people told me their electric system retained a charge across the motors and other components and there was a switch on the machine and a procedure for draining that charge away. When I asked why that wasn't something automatically done they didn't have an answer.

 

[Welder Dave]

There's a debate over which mining trucks are better, electric or mechanical. Big wheel loaders are electric or mechanical drive. I think you'd have to take 2 machines and work them in the same conditions and see which is less expensive to operate and maintain over a long period and also which one would have economically the longest life span.