The pulse of America

[willie59]

I have been purposely avoiding this thread like it's a plague. But I had to say "hear hear" to CM1995.

One axiom I'm compelled to add about human nature;

The poor remain poor because they continue to do the things that make them poor. The rich remain rich because they continue to do the things that make them rich.

But I find the rich more useful to me. After all, a poor person is not likely to pay me to fix his broken garage door, or bake his deli bread, or dry clean his suits, or wax his yacht, or drive his limo, or...you get the message.

 

[mitch504]

This is something I have been thinking about for a long time. I was thinking about starting a thread to see what you all think but after reading CM's post above I thought i'd throw it in here. Please let me know what you think.

Food stamps should only buy one generic brand of nutritious, basic food from a special aisle in the grocery store. It should not buy drink mixers, candy, or anything luxuriuos.

Welfare should only buy one color and style of clothing. It should not be money that can be used for anything the recipient wants.

Living off the work of others should be a last resort, not an attractive lifestyle.

Please tell me where I am wrong, and thanks for the oportunity to:soapbox

Mitch

 

[digger242j]

Well, I'll have to get hold of a copy and read it, but I'm still not convinced it's as valid as it might've been back then.

I knew as soon as you started on the grocery store story that it was going to end with food stamps. Those moochers have always been with us, and always will be. That's not what I was addressing.

However, the real message is not the "tycoon is being treated unfairly" but rather that it is not right to take from people that produce and give it to people that do nothing, all in the mantra of "the common good". The takers are labeled as the "moochers" and the businessmen are the "producers".

Here's where I think you're missing my point. Wall Street, for example, makes tons of money. It moves money around from point A to point B, and siphons off a little every time it does. What does it "produce"?

The other point I made was about technology.

Around here, back in the '70's every builder had a labor crew of 10-12 guys that did everything from dig footings to spread gravel by hand in basments. Now we have skids and mini-ex's to do that work. Has the skid and mini kept workers from sharing in the prosperity?

Thanks. Perfect example, and it hits right here at home. Did those builders, who now have a crew of 5 or 6, and a mini and a skidder, double the wages of those 5 or 6 guys? Of course not. So yeah, even at this level, technology has negatively impacted the sharing of prosperity. Magnify it by several thousand times, as in the steel industry, and you end up with a whole bunch of people, who've always been willing to work, never wanted to be moochers, but they can't find jobs anymore.

And I'm not blaming the builder that's invested in those machines, or begrudging him his profits, but I honestly think that's one of the biggest sociological problems we face today. Good jobs, where somebody got an honest day's pay for an honest day's work are disappearing, and there are no similar jobs to replace them. Follow the trend to its logical conclusion, and you'll have a society where machines produce everything, so people need to produce nothing. It may be generations away from being that absolute, but you can't convince me we're not pointed in that direction. Great, right? Until you need to answer the question of how everybody pays the owners of the machines for their services...

Does Rand address that?

And since ATCO posted while I was typing...

The poor remain poor because they continue to do the things that make them poor. The rich remain rich because they continue to do the things that make them rich.

A few posts above, I lamented the shrinking of the middle class. Again, those are the people I'm talking about. People who've never wanted a job aren't going to miss them, but what do you say to those who do want a job but can't find one?

BTW, here's some interesting reading on what some guys do that makes them rich: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/01/ceo-pay-layoffs_n_701908.html

 

[John C.]

The rich versus poor argument is not going to go anywhere. The real question is do you have a chance at becoming rich? In the last twenty years that question is answered by "not so much". In fact if you are middle class it is much more likely that you are getting poorer by the day through no fault of your own. I've been in the twenty eight percent tax income tax rate for some time. Rich people make their money on investments and only pay fifteen percent. Why do they get the break and we pay full bore. It's time to look past the propaganda blasted out by the boo birds on the right wing media and the whiners on the left.

Again we are fighting two wars, the rich are shipping jobs overseas, we have looted the social security trust fund and are borrowing more money from overseas than ever before. So how are we supposed to pay for this going forward? The tax cuts from the Bush administration did not prevent rich people from creating jobs when the bubble burst. It is still in effect and jobs are certainly not being created. Rich people lobbied congress to get the Glass-Steagall act repealed and implement the Graham-Leach-Bliley act which allowed investment banks to get into retail banking and allowing the end of regulations. Tax payers bailed out the rich bankers so they could go back and do the same thing all over again in a few years. The financial reform bill just passed through congress was watered down by rich people's lobbyists so that regulations would not rein in the excesses by the financial sector.

So just why should they still enjoy the tax break going forward?

 

[Cat Wrench]

Quote:
The banks were forced to make loans to risky borrowers due to government regulation (control) over the banks.

I've heard that a lot, but never really bothered to look into it before.

There are some who hold that opinion, and some who disagree with it. I'll admit I ain't too smart. I don't know how smart you are. But this came from some guy at Harvard, where they usually don't let them in the door unless they're real smart.

(First and last paragraphs quoted. You can read the rest if you like. I added the bold.)

Well I obviously ain't too smart either, just read my posts.
I really don't care about some government report. Unfortunately we live in a time where most people have no integrity and the government officials most of all fit into that category.
Do I need to point to all the stories about false claims from our elected officials (C.A.R.B. comes to mind) with skewed reports or findings to support their agenda's?
I have a good friend who owns a local bank. The federal regulators came in on him about 8 years ago after an audit and informed him that they would increase his rate at which he borrows (from the fed where he is forced by regulation to get funds from) if he did not have a certain percentage of loans that included what are now know to be high risk loans, you know the ones Jesse Jackson went around the country pushing after one of the fair housing acts was passed. If he was to remain in business what was he going to do? They would have increased the rate on all of the money that he loans.

Fast forward to 2009. Guess which category of loans he is now having to foreclose on?
He is 80 years old and been in the banking business for over 60 years and he personally told me he has never seen such and anti-small business climate in his life. I will take his experience over any Harvard educated fool any day.

 

[digger242j]

Well, when it comes to integrity, after the events of the past few years, I'm not sure most people would rate bankers any higher than government officials. Maybe your friend is different.

Like I said, there are lots of opposing opinions on the subject. The only reason I linked the report from the guy at Harvard was that it was the first one short enough that it didn't exceed my attention span, and it contained actual numbers.

I don't remember where I heard it said, but somebody said, "If you see a banker leap out of a third story window, follow him, because that's where the money is." The numbers weren't in the parts I quoted, but essentially, 9% of the bad loans came from the banks covered by the law, and the other 91% of the bad loans came from the rest of the banking industry. To me, those numbers say that the banking industry at large saw the opportunity to make a buck, by making unsafe loans, so that's where they went. They weren't pushed out the window by the government.

Your mileage may vary...

 

[dayexco]

i'm amazed you've allowed this thread to go as long as it has. i applaud you!!! that said...let's try a new concept...let's keep our tax dollars to educate our kids, , fend for the poor, fix our streets, sewers, protect us from fire and evil people...in doing so, all the people holding the positions in those positions...remember the ones attempting to pay their salaries, and their benefit packages. there has to be an end game here....history will tell you, redistribute wealth all you want, eventually, it's going to end up in a small percentage of hands once again...the only cure here is, to make EVERYBODY capable of being productive...to do so, and to prepare for their OWN retirement without depending on the taxpayers for it. not such a hard concept.

 

[Cat Wrench]

I enjoy good, civil, thought provoking discussion which I feel that this thread has been. There are many different views as to why the "pulse of America" is in the condition that it is, and thats what they are, views, from different and very diverse prospectives.

I have never seen a time like this in my life (I am 38). I have been a mechanic since high school and a business owner for the vast majority of my adult life. In the past if I wanted to buy something outside of my budget I would just increase my work load to afford it. But in the last few years I have only been able to generate enough work just to keep food on the table and keep the bill collectors satisfied. I have very little debt besides my home. I am not complaining I feel blessed just to be able to support my family of six.

I appreciate those who have contributed to the discussion whether I agree with them or not. It is helpful to consider different points of view that I would not be subjected to in my own circles of social contact.

I also appreciate the moderation of this site.

 

[motorizedcowboy]

Take a deep look who we owe in this world, their waiting, better learn to speek Chinese

 

[amunderdog]

Very thought provoking thread.

Lets look at the bigger picture for a moment.
All things in this reality have a cycle.

The Cycle of Civilization
Man begins his existence in bondage, and rises:
from bondage through spiritual faith,
from spiritual faith to courage,
from courage to liberty,
from liberty to abundance,
from abundance to selfishness,
from selfishness to complacency,
from complacency to apathy,
from apathy to dependency,
from dependency back into bondage.

-Clarence Manion, dean of Nortre Dame law school (1941-1952) as quoted in “In whom do you trust?”, R.B. Thieme, Jr.

That deals more with Man (who creates the civilization).
What about the civilizations they lived in?
In antiquity they seemd to live a normal life cylcle. Birth thru death.
Now many seem to be just cycling like the seasons.
China seems poised for spring
Not sure where Russia is. They went into winter awhile back. Seems they chose that though.
America seems to be headed into winter. Winters have always been hard on man and his creations.
Not sure where Europe as a whole is. They tried awhile back to creat a spring with the formation of the EU but it does not look like it is working as planned.

Anyway..............................

 

[Tiny]

If nothing is done,I believe that the ability to speak an opposing view will be lost.

 

[Tiny]

I enjoy good, civil, thought provoking discussion which I feel that this thread has been.

If nothing is done,I believe that the ability to speak an opposing view will be lost.

Just wait until the cold meds Kick in Cat Wrench (I have da Flu ) then the truck driver thought,Wit and wisdom will ooze all over the page

 

[Cat Wrench]

If nothing is done,I believe that the ability to speak an opposing view will be lost.

Just wait until the cold meds Kick in Cat Wrench (I have da Flu ) then the truck driver thought,Wit and wisdom will ooze all over the page

Looking forward to it with great expectation. Nothing beats medicated truck driver wit.:drinkup

 

[digger242j]

I think they're kickin in already. Either that or I'm seeing double... :dizzy

 

[Tiny]

Just some random thoughts,Why haven't we the people forced congress to live with the laws it passes.......The health care program ,The biggest money grab on earth.If it is the most wondrous thing since sliced bread , Why not join the the simple people they care so very much about. (Their words not mine)


If you are too lazy to vote,Shut up.I'm sick of you.


property taxes should be voted on only by property owners

 

[JDOFMEMI]

I have been enjoying this. Nice to have a good debate.

I will chip in a bit on Diggers take. The machines may replace the direct labor on the job, such as your example of there only being a crew of 5 or 6 and some machinery instead of 10 or 12 without the machines.

Think about this though. It is not a loss of jobs, but a relocation of the jobs. There were manufacturing jobs created to build the machines. There were mining jobs created to mine the raw material to build the machines. There was transportation jobs created to move the raw material and the finished product. There were sales jobs created at the dealer who sells the machines, and there were maintenance jobs created for those who service the machines.
The loss of labor on one side of the coin was balanced by an increase accross the industries I mentioned, plus others I didn't. Then there is the productivity gain, because the contractor can now build more faster, and move on.

The part most have trouble with is that those 6 recently unemployed laborers have no job, unless they take initiative and learn a new skill to find a job in one of the new industries that helped eliminate his old position. For those with initiative, this will be done, and for those looking for an excuse of "how unfair it all is" they will sit and complain while waiting on a handout.

Machines have been replacing physical labor for several hundred years, and it has led to the standard of living we are accustomed to, which is much better than that lived through by those before the industrial revolution. Progress can't be stopped, as each individual with drive will strive to do more than he could before. That leads to innovation. New technologies will render obsolete the high tech items of yesterday.
There are really only 2 options there. Take advantage of the benefits and increase your productivity, or slip behind as others do the work more efficiently.

That is an entirely different argument than the political one of taking from the producers to support the do-littles.

I agree that Atlas is just as relevant now as it was when it was written. Sure, the details of the technology are different, but the ideas behind them are the same.

I will save thoughts on that for a later post, as I now have to go put my words of "wisdom?" to work for myself.

 

[digger242j]

I will chip in a bit on Diggers take. The machines may replace the direct labor on the job, such as your example of there only being a crew of 5 or 6 and some machinery instead of 10 or 12 without the machines.... etc.

I'm going to be away from HEF for the next day and a half, but real quick, let me reply to that.

I'm not sure it's the case, or more accurately, I'm sure its not the case, that the lost labor jobs are being replaced one for one by technical or manufacturing jobs.

I mentioned the steel industry earlier. I don't have time to search for numbers, but I know that the man hours/ton of steel produced is a mere fraction of what it was 50 years ago. Here in Pittsburgh, tens of thousands of steel jobs went away, not just overseas, but gone for good, because of more efficient technology. Also, you have to accept the fact that not every honest and hard working individual is mentally equipped to function in a high tech environment. "Strong backs and weak minds" is a phrase that has sometimes been used to describe a large part of the labor force. In the past, those people were still able to make a decent living, by working hard. Do such opportunities still exist for that segment of the population?

(BTW, I couldn't agree more with Dayexco where he led with, "let's try a new concept...let's keep our tax dollars to educate our kids,", because a good education is more important than it's ever been.)

I had a question that was inspired by ATCO's comment as well--in terms of technician man hours/yard of earth moved, are we more or less efficient than we were 50 years ago? I don't know the answer, but I'd bet good money that today's more sophisticated, more efficient equipment requires fewer service hours per yard than the old beasts that could be fixed by anybody with a set of wrenches, not only due to the equipment being more efficient, but the service process being more efficient.

Let's not even get into processes where computers now do the lion's share of the work, like engineering or bookeeping. How many bookeepers and secretarial positions disappeared directly due to the power of the machine you're reading these words on? Where do those people work now?

 

[Tiny]

“Adapt and Overcome…” – MSG E. Thompson, 313th BN (ABN), 1979

We as a nation used to be the best at this,Not any more.

My oldest son who I am very proud of ,was oiling on cranes but when the market died he did not sit there waiting on the government to fix things he jumped in the cab of a truck and started making money again.

While not the best job he is taking care of bis.

Hes waiting for the day things improve enough that he can go back to oiling.

Why do so many want the gov to wipe their nose's and make things better.

"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

 

[willie59]

I had a question that was inspired by ATCO's comment as well--

Well, I've been called a number of things in my life...inspirational is a new one for me. Hmmm :tong

 

[qball]

Mark your calendar, I agree with qball!! It is already under way and will be felt nationwide November 3.

i think we are all forgetting the important issue.
steve agreed with me