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Starter Cranking Problems for NH L220

StumpyWally

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I have a 2012 NH L220 SSL that I bought new at that time, & I need a new 12-volt battery. The existing one (the original CNH one) seems to have gotten too weak to start the machine, despite being "fully charged" by a battery tender. I may have damaged it by fully discharging it several times (long story), or it may have been slightly defective even when new. Either way, it's outside its warranty.

I have had great luck with Optima Red Top AGM batteries in my 12-volt diesel utility tractor, & in my NH EH80 excavator (2 hooked in series for the 24-volt system), but Optima does not seem to make a model that fits the requirements of my SSL, namely:
  • 1,000 CCA
  • Group 31 Size (length 13", width 6-13/16", height 9-5/16")
  • Top posts

Based on my Optima experience, I would prefer a AGM type battery (their vibration resistance is a plus). But I can't find any that offer 1,000 CCA, except a DieHard Platinum Marine Battery 31M, which offers 1,150 CCA, at $280. But I found mixed reviews of it, & it doesn't ship to any of the 6 or so Sears locations near me, so I'm at a loss as to how to buy it even if I wanted it.

Interstate has their 31-AGM7 battery, but it has only 810 CCA, & is over $300.

It seems that my best choice is to go back to the CNH replacement battery (BNH31TW) from my dealer, for about $150, but it's a conventional wet battery.

What would you guys recommend?? Quick...winter is comin' on, & I need to rely on this machine starting...
 

Nige

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It is hard to find anything 1000CCA or higher unless you go to a 4D or 8D battery Group Size.

Caterpillar 115-2421 might just fit your needs. It is a 950CCA Group Size 31 battery. It's priced at $185 in my local dealer. You might be lucky and find there is some sort of promotion on batteries because it's "that time of the year" again ........ https://parts.cat.com/en/catcorp/115-2421
 

StumpyWally

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Caterpillar 115-2421 might just fit your needs. It is a 950CCA Group Size 31 battery. It's priced at $185 in my local dealer.

First, thank you for the prompt reply...

I struggled with the on-line Cat PartsStore (I finally convinced my local dealer to give me access just today), & found that the 115-2421 is $159.08...but it comes dry, so I would have to add/buy the electrolite. It appears that 115-2422 is the same thing only "wet" (with the electrolite) for $162.38. The ...21 is listed at 950 CCA, whereas the ...22 is listed as 1,000 CCA, I don't understand why they are rated differently, when all their other specs appear the same?? And is there any warranty??

Then I found a 175-4390, w/ electrolite, 1,000 CCA, Group 31, for $113.79...even had one in stock at my local Cat dealer (15 minutes away)...but then I noticed that it has stud terminals on top & not std. SAE top posts like the one you suggested. I'm not sure I know what a top stud terminal is...maybe just like a side terminal but on top?? If so, I would have to modify my battery cables to use it....

I also called my local NH dealer, who said that their current replacement battery for my machine is a CNH S770 (made by Exide), & is now 1,100 CCA & Group 31, & now with a 36-month warranty. For $147.50. I reserved one for pickup by me tomorrow, pending coming up with any other ideas.
 

durallymax

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Skip all of that, go to any truck shop in your area, they will all have group 31s by the pallet. Every semi uses them. I convert everything I can over to them.

I buy the 750cca Exides for $70 from my KW dealer.

The 925cca are $5 more. They do not last as long and fail more often than the 750s which is why I go that route.
 

StumpyWally

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So, I removed my battery from my SSL, took it to my dealer (about 30 miles away), only to find out that the new one I had reserved was NOT as described by the parts tech (the young a**hole, I was not happy). Instead of 1000 CCA with a 36-month warranty, it REALLY was 950 CCA with a 20-month warranty!!

But they tested my existing battery under load & found nothing wrong with it!! So, the service mgr. is going to have one of their field service guys stop & look at my machine (they are in my area all the time), & give me a 1/2 hr. free of service time to try to diagnose what's really wrong. He mentioned that there have been starter problems and diode problems on those machines (not a happy thought!!).

The symptom is when you hit the power button, the panel lights up & it goes thru its preheat cycle, when done I hit the start button, & I hear just a click (from the starter relay in the fuse panel it seems), but no starter turn over. Power down, try again, & almost always the starter will turn over & the machine will start. Also, if I jumper from my pickup (even if the pickup is only at idle) the starter will always turn over & start the machine normally. So, the problem seems to be only the first time I try after the machine has been off a while, but will work even then if it's jumpered. I have no confidence, now, that it will start by itself in the winter.

So, we'll see what the field service tech comes up with...
 

StumpyWally

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Skip all of that, go to any truck shop in your area, they will all have group 31s by the pallet. Every semi uses them. I convert everything I can over to them.

I buy the 750cca Exides for $70 from my KW dealer.

The 925cca are $5 more. They do not last as long and fail more often than the 750s which is why I go that route.

I would appreciate some battery education...Why would you want to replace a 1000 CCA battery with a 750 CCA one?? What's the practical consequence of downsizing?? It seems it would not have as much capacity to turn the engine over?? Am I missing something??

And why do you think that the 925 CCA ones fail more often than the 750 CCA ones?? Should I infer from that that the 1000 CCA ones would fail even more often??

Durally, I've read many of your posts & you seem to know what you're talking out based on experience, so I would welcome your help...I don't profess to be a professional mechanic, let alone a diesel mechanic, but it sounds like you are...
 

Delmer

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I haven't had enough experience to be able to tell, but I trust durallymax's opinion on the batteries.

There are lots of ways that batteries are made to have more CCAs and if they're in the same case as a lower CCA battery they will mostly shorten the life of the battery. More, larger, thinner, finer grained lead plates. Less space at the bottom for sediment. Maybe even higher acid concentration?

Thanks for the heads up on the truck dealer.
 

old-iron-habit

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Two years ago my New Holland had the exact same symptions as yours. My battery also tested good. Our corporate equipment manager told me to replace the battery anyway. The company has about 60 of the New Hollands. I took his advive and it has been starting perfect again since. Apparently there is something in the start circuit that kicks out if it does not have absolute optimal voltage.
 

CatToy

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You mentioned that the battery was discharged several times and only recharged by a battery tender. I believe you have a weak battery with a bad cell. When I owned a parts store in my younger days, I would put battery's like yours on a desulphurization charge with a full featured battery charger, battery tenders (unless it is also has battery charging features) are usually not capable of recharging a discharged battery properly. When you let a battery go dead, it builds up sulfur crystals on the plates. Over time, they build up to prevent proper discharge of amperage, it may still register good unloaded voltage. The good thing is that it can be easily prevented by ensuring that a battery is fully recharged immediately after it is discharged then put on a battery tender to maintain it charged.

If a desulphurization charge did not restore you battery's capacity, you probably have a damaged cell and need a new battery. I have a Black & Decker VEC1093D charger for my home use, not sure they are made anymore but it has specific desulphurization mode. I know BatteryMINDer Plus can be had with combo charger/maintainer/Desulfator. Of course you could just buy a new battery or take the one off your truck and test the theory but what fun would that be.:)
 

durallymax

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I would appreciate some battery education...Why would you want to replace a 1000 CCA battery with a 750 CCA one?? What's the practical consequence of downsizing?? It seems it would not have as much capacity to turn the engine over?? Am I missing something??

And why do you think that the 925 CCA ones fail more often than the 750 CCA ones?? Should I infer from that that the 1000 CCA ones would fail even more often??

Durally, I've read many of your posts & you seem to know what you're talking out based on experience, so I would welcome your help...I don't profess to be a professional mechanic, let alone a diesel mechanic, but it sounds like you are...

I'm not a battery expert, and there are a lot of variables to consider. In my case of the same Exide 750 vs 925 , the short simple answer is the number of batteries that come back to the parts/service guys at the dealer. Not many 750s at all in comparison to the 925s. Both start the trucks just fine and most drivers never notice a difference anyways.

There are a lot of factors involved in failure, assuming both batteries are identical otherwise, there's only really one way to get more CCA's. More surface area, and since the space inside the case is the same and the battery technology is the same, more plates are needed. In order to fit them, they need to be thinner which can make them more susceptible to failure for a number of reasons. Being thin, the plates can expand more during cranking, which over time can make them more susceptible to a short earlier in life. The thinner plates can be more susceptible to corrosion, all batteries grids will corrode, its just a matter of time and various factors can reduce the effect, but it is never eliminated. Keep in mind, different manufacturers techniques and quality will vary some, but there's still only so much variation that you can have in the same size lead acid battery.

Aside from active material depletion, Sulfation and "soft shorts" are the other leading causes of poor battery performance. Sulfation can be prevented, and can often be reversed. A soft short is when a portion of the battery is shorted out for some reason (possibly contacting the fallout at the bottom). Soft shorts are not always easily found because the battery often works fine right after charging, but will die quickly due to discharging itself. Thats why it can be important to charge the battery fully, let it stand for 12 hours, then load test it. Carbon Pile is still the cheapest effective load testing. There are more advance systems as well. No one system can really test everything though. IIRC more than 50% of batteries returned as "bad" are actually just fine, meaning proper testing is getting scarce because it is time consuming.

The reason to replace a higher CCA battery with a lower one is due to a potentially longer life and lower upfront costs. Most batteries will not make it 4 years. Batteries are not hard to replace, so I prefer to buy the cheaper ones as long as they work decent enough, versus spending double without getting double the life. That statement doesn't really correlate with CCA necessarily. If you actually need the higher CCA then you are going to have to buy it, however in your situation you most likely dont. CCA is the amps the battery will deliver after 30 seconds in 0* weather and remain above 7.2v. Modern electronic engines usually need to stay above 9-10v or they cutout to protect the electronics. An OEM may spec a higher CCA to for a long cranking time without dropping below a certain voltage. That doesn't mean its always necessary. How often are you cranking your SSL for 30 seconds? Unless you just changed the fuel filter or you are having an issue, probably not too often. The demands of pre-heaters do play a role in this though as well.

The downside of a lower CCA battery is simply less cranking time. However, you have to decide if you really need the extra cranking time. You probably don't on that specific machine. I use the 750CCA's in everything around here. Our SSL's all start fine with them. Larger equipment with 6-9L engines have two of them in parallel (or series on the 24v machines) and they can crank forever (remember that CCA is doubled though). Semi's with 12-16L engines usually have three of them in parallel and can crank just fine for a very long time.


I don't have a lot of nitty gritty tech on it other than multiple battery places saying that on the same battery, the higher CCA ones tend to fail quicker and more often. Thus I say if the lower CCA works, use it and in my case it has always worked. I've used the 925s before as well, not a huge difference. You are really only going to notice the difference if you have to crank for an abnormally long amount of time and at that point the higher CCA may be the difference between needing a charger/jump but how often is that going to happen where the higher CCA would've prevented needing a jump? You have to decide that for yourself based on experience, if a properly functioning system with fresh good batteries cannot crank for an adequate amount of time, then you need a higher CCA setup. Sometimes it takes a bit of trial and error, but with $70 batteries its not a huge gamble for me, if I ever find something it doesn't work in there's many other pieces of equipment around here I can use that battery for. I havent found one where the 750's weren't adequate.

Your mileage may vary though.
 

StumpyWally

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There are lots of ways that batteries are made to have more CCAs and if they're in the same case as a lower CCA battery they will mostly shorten the life of the battery. More, larger, thinner, finer grained lead plates. Less space at the bottom for sediment. Maybe even higher acid concentration?
There are a lot of factors involved in failure, assuming both batteries are identical otherwise, there's only really one way to get more CCA's. More surface area, and since the space inside the case is the same and the battery technology is the same, more plates are needed. In order to fit them, they need to be thinner which can make them more susceptible to failure for a number of reasons. Being thin, the plates can expand more during cranking, which over time can make them more susceptible to a short earlier in life. The thinner plates can be more susceptible to corrosion, all batteries grids will corrode, its just a matter of time and various factors can reduce the effect, but it is never eliminated.

Thanks to both of you for your matching explanations on battery life vs. CCA's in the same size case. It makes sense.

The reason to replace a higher CCA battery with a lower one is due to a potentially longer life and lower upfront costs. Most batteries will not make it 4 years. Batteries are not hard to replace, so I prefer to buy the cheaper ones as long as they work decent enough, versus spending double without getting double the life. That statement doesn't really correlate with CCA necessarily. If you actually need the higher CCA then you are going to have to buy it, however in your situation you most likely dont. CCA is the amps the battery will deliver after 30 seconds in 0* weather and remain above 7.2v. Modern electronic engines usually need to stay above 9-10v or they cutout to protect the electronics. An OEM may spec a higher CCA to for a long cranking time without dropping below a certain voltage. That doesn't mean its always necessary. How often are you cranking your SSL for 30 seconds? Unless you just changed the fuel filter or you are having an issue, probably not too often. The demands of pre-heaters do play a role in this though as well.

The downside of a lower CCA battery is simply less cranking time. However, you have to decide if you really need the extra cranking time. You probably don't on that specific machine. I use the 750CCA's in everything around here. Our SSL's all start fine with them.

I suspect you're probably right, I don't need 1000cca to start my L220. It has a preheat cycle that you can't avoid, & it has always started quickly. Makes me wonder why NH puts a 1000cca battery in them in the first place?? But there is no way to know without trying it. And while swapping the battery in my SSL is probably easier than most, it's still a cramped PITA, made a little worse by my adding a while ago electric winch wiring & an electric solenoid battery disconnect on the negative side. Downsizing the cca has gotten me thinking again about trying an Optima AGM battery @ 800 cca. Although it will cost more, at least with that I get a smaller physical size, which would help overcome some of the cramped PITA issues. And if it didn't workout, it would fit in my pickup, or could replace one of the 2 in my excavator...or maybe even fit in my car. A group 31 battery won't work in any of those places. So, what do you think of AGM batteries?? Cost is high, but what about their life...& vibration resistance...& really maintenance free aspect??

Two years ago my New Holland had the exact same symptions as yours. My battery also tested good. Our corporate equipment manager told me to replace the battery anyway. The company has about 60 of the New Hollands. I took his advice and it has been starting perfect again since. Apparently there is something in the start circuit that kicks out if it does not have absolute optimal voltage.

What model New Holland?? And I think you hit on the same feeling I have, that it seems like there is some threshold voltage that the starting circuit needs. My existing battery at rest reads about 12.5-12.8 volts, but of course when I jump the SSL with my truck the voltage rises to 14.5 volts or so due to the truck alternator. When the dealer load tested my battery, i witnessed it putting out a good 12.5 volts while the heat its output current was generating was pouring out of the tester. Is that a "Carbon Pile" tester like Durally referred to?? It seems to me that if my SSL needs more that 12.5 volts to energize the start circuit, then NO battery, new or otherwise, is going to work & something else is wrong, like my dealer's service mgr. has hinted at.


You mentioned that the battery was discharged several times and only recharged by a battery tender.

Not quite...I seem to recall removing the battery & having it recharged overnight at a local garage. The rest of the time, particularly in the winter, I maintain it with a Deltran Battery Tender.

But your mentioning a full featured battery charger with desulphurization capability reminds me that I should probably get one for insurance & peace of mind. Do you know if desulphurization charging is applicable for AGM type batteries, like for wet cells??

While I wait for my dealer's field tech to show up, I need to research chargers...Beside the B&D VEC1093D charger you have, does anyone else have some decent ones to recommend that won't bankrupt me?? I do have 2 vehicles & 3 pieces of equipment, so I don't want a piece of crap charger, but I don't expect to have to use it heavily.
 

old-iron-habit

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What model New Holland?? And I think you hit on the same feeling I have, that it seems like there is some threshold voltage that the starting circuit needs. My existing battery at rest reads about 12.5-12.8 volts, but of course when I jump the SSL with my truck the voltage rises to 14.5 volts or so due to the truck alternator. When the dealer load tested my battery, i witnessed it putting out a good 12.5 volts while the heat its output current was generating was pouring out of the tester. Is that a "Carbon Pile" tester like Durally referred to?? It seems to me that if my SSL needs more that 12.5 volts to energize the start circuit, then NO battery, new or otherwise, is going to work & something else is wrong, like my dealer's service mgr. has hinted at.

My existing battery was 6 years old. It would start and run fine when shut off for just a short while. If left for a number of hours or overnight it cranked fine but would not fire. It would start instantly with a jump or on the battery charger. I tested it after setting overnight and it read at 11.6 on my cheap digital meter. I checked today and my now two year old battery measured 12.4 V this morning at 32 F after setting for a few days and it fired instantly after the glow plugs said to go. Mine is a SX565. The company skid steers are all over the size range.
 
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durallymax

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I suspect you're probably right, I don't need 1000cca to start my L220. It has a preheat cycle that you can't avoid, & it has always started quickly. Makes me wonder why NH puts a 1000cca battery in them in the first place?? But there is no way to know without trying it.

They have to account for all conditions, CCA is at 0* which is cold but not severely cold. It also may provide a bit of a safety net giving the illusion that the battery is lasting longer even if the machine doesn't necessarily need that size, as it degrades it will take longer to not be usable.

Then there's the most logical reason, they get a great deal buying truckloads of the same batteries whether its for an L220 or something larger that may actually need a battery of that size.

And while swapping the battery in my SSL is probably easier than most, it's still a cramped PITA, made a little worse by my adding a while ago electric winch wiring & an electric solenoid battery disconnect on the negative side.

IIRC on those its inside that compartment on one side right? Not the worst but not easy either. I'm mad that Cat moved their battery to the engine compartment now, its not terrible to replace but blocks the oil filter and cramps the engine bay more. I liked when it was under the cab on the C/C2, really easy to replace.

Downsizing the cca has gotten me thinking again about trying an Optima AGM battery @ 800 cca. Although it will cost more, at least with that I get a smaller physical size, which would help overcome some of the cramped PITA issues. And if it didn't workout, it would fit in my pickup, or could replace one of the 2 in my excavator...or maybe even fit in my car. A group 31 battery won't work in any of those places. So, what do you think of AGM batteries?? Cost is high, but what about their life...& vibration resistance...& really maintenance free aspect??

AGM batteries have their advantages, generally they last through more cycles, they can be discharged a bit further, they hold up much better for periods of inactivity, no chance for spills, and their vibration resistance is excellent. You have to decide if there's an advantage for you or not. Given the lower use of your machine, you may benefit from one, but if you use a battery tender as it is, a wet cell battery would be fine too.

Is that a "Carbon Pile" tester like Durally referred to?? It seems to me that if my SSL needs more that 12.5 volts to energize the start circuit, then NO battery, new or otherwise, is going to work & something else is wrong, like my dealer's service mgr. has hinted at.

Your SSL shouldn't need that high of voltage to crank.

Carbon pile testers are big bulky deals that apply a large real load to the battery. You are supposed to start with a fully charged battery, apply half of the rated CCA for 15 seconds and if the battery stays above 9.6v its deemed good, at least in that test. It wont always find a shorted cell, letting the battery sit without a charge can though.

Do you know if desulphurization charging is applicable for AGM type batteries, like for wet cells??

AGM batteries are less susceptible to sulfation, but its still possible. All of the batteries are still lead acid batteries just with different construction. Wet batteries obviously use liquid to hold the electrolyte, AGM=Absorbed Glass Matt where it is still a liquid but fully absorbed into a media, Gel type uses silica to create a paste. There is plate style construction and spiral construction which you are familiar with in the Optima batteries. There's a lot of different marketing lingo that can get confusing as well. Odyssey avoids calling their battery an AGM and says "starved electrolyte" which is an AGM battery. You will also hear about Valve Regulated batteries. Any sealed battery is valve regulated. Basically every battery is "sealed" and "maintenance free" except for serviceable wet cell batteries. You hear "dry cell" as well which is used to describe any battery that isn't a wet/liquid battery.

While I wait for my dealer's field tech to show up, I need to research chargers...Beside the B&D VEC1093D charger you have, does anyone else have some decent ones to recommend that won't bankrupt me?? I do have 2 vehicles & 3 pieces of equipment, so I don't want a piece of crap charger, but I don't expect to have to use it heavily.

I use a NOCO Genius for reviving dead batteries, desulphurization, and charging AGM batteries. The desulfate mode on them is like many chargers and just runs a high voltage at low amperage which is very effective but some argue that it speeds up corrosion and that a pulsed setup is better. You can make your own as well if you have the time.
 

durallymax

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My existing battery was 6 years old. It would start and run fine when shut off for just a short while. If left for a number of hours or overnight it cranked fine but would not fire. It would start instantly with a jump or on the battery charger. I tested it after setting overnight and it read at 11.6 on my cheap digital meter. I checked today and my now two year old battery measured 12.4 V this morning at 32 F after setting for a few days and it fired instantly after the glow plugs said to go. Mine is a SX565. The company skid steers are all over the size range.

If it made it to 6 years that seems pretty decent to me. If it would perform fine after a charge and while running, but loose power after sitting for awhile, it probably had something causing a higher rate of self-discharge like an internal soft short.
 

StumpyWally

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Then there's the most logical reason, they get a great deal buying truckloads of the same batteries whether its for an L220 or something larger that may actually need a battery of that size.

Yea...I can see that being the case, rather than any technical reason!!

IIRC on those its inside that compartment on one side right? Not the worst but not easy either.

Yep, you're right, there is an access panel on the left rear side that removes easily with 3 bolts...It's the same panel that covers the engine oil filter & remote oil drain. That access panel works great, it's not the problem...the PITA is loosening & removing the cables from the top SAE battery posts...& then spreading those clamps & getting back on the posts. There is precious little finger room on top of the battery (due to its Group 31 height, that's where I'm thinking an Optima AGM 800cca battery holds a size advantage, because it's almost 2" less in height). And I even have a real forged Snap-on clamp spreader, but those clamps are so beefy they don't spread easily!! And the cables are so short you can't drag the clamps out to work on them. On newer L220's than mine they have changed to stud posts on top of the battery & matching cable ends, which eliminates that spreading problem.[/QUOTE]

Your SSL shouldn't need that high of voltage to crank.

I totally agree...hope the field service tech can pinpoint the REAL problem!!

I use a NOCO Genius for reviving dead batteries, desulphurization, and charging AGM batteries.

Thanks, I'll check those out. I was looking at all of Schumacher's chargers & getting a little boggled by the choices. I've also starting looking at Optima's new Digital 1200 charger, but I may have to contact them to see if it includes desulphurization ability.
 

mountainlake

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I also go to the local truck dealer for group 31 battery's and they go in everything the will fit in, $74 right now for the stud ones 925 amp , I think the post ones are a little more. Steve
 

StumpyWally

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All connections to starter are good.

NH field tech arrived yesterday, witnessed problem, it's actually intermittent, but mainly first start or 2 of the day, dismissed "diode" problem (that's in the wiring harness on left side, & problem was cow manure getting on contacts & corroding them, my machine is NOT in cow *hit), advised I try a test the next AM.

Did test this AM...attached DVOM direct to main + post on starter, & observed voltage as tried to start. Starter clicked, didn't turn, & voltage never dipped below 10.5+ volts, & then popped back to about 12.4v. So, starter is getting enough power, which would point to a starter problem.

Turns out NH thru my dealer wants over $900 for either a new or reman starter...I almost had a coronary!! Have a new one on order thru a local diesel shop for $349...should be in 2 days, & they don't want my old one. Late today got a recommendation from a farmer friend for another local shop that tests & rebuilds starters, & is very reasonable. Plan to take starter there tomorrow...

Obviously, I've removed the starter, wasn't too bad for a SSL, could have been much worse, but of course still had to lay down in the "belly of the beast" with the cab up to do it...
 

StumpyWally

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The local starter test/rebuild shop couldn't find a thing wrong with my starter, so no charge. Took it apart & looked it over carefully. So, tomorrow I'll reinstall it, weather permitting. When I do, I plan on making the ignition/exciter wire longer, the existing one has very little slack & has a 180* bend in it as it connects to the screw terminal on starter. The local starter shop recommended I cut a couple of inches off this wire (to eliminate the 180* bend area, & possibly broken strands), & then extend it. Sounds reasonable, but how can I be sure if I'm eliminating the area with potentially broken strands?? Anyone know of a good way to test that wire to see if it has enough amp capacity??

I've asked my NH dealer to email me an electrical schematic for my machine. Uncertain if they will be able to provide a clear one, or when. Does anyone out there have such a schematic that they are willing to share??
 

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Location
Cold but Sunny, Western Canada
^ I suspect you must have a BAD/ Loose connection most likely then which if it is true, will be a point of Resistance and therefore HEAT (seems usually a GROUND cable in most of my experiences) _ if you can touch or shoot a IR temp gun at connections you may find.. if the Wire you want to check has broken strands enough to affect its performance, it would also heat up somewhat, although I doubt the Current required in such a circuit is that high, but someone more familiar with the specific machine may well chime in here _ Good Luck!!
 
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