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Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,257
Location
Canada
It would be nice if you could remove work done but I think it would be like going after someone who you caught stealing on your property. They'd have more rights than you do.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,257
Location
Canada
Still NO excuse for her to stiff you for the work!!! any decent human being should have been up front about it... or at least answer your calls and try to make some arrangements to pay after the sale... there are plenty of ways she could have dealt with it honestly and not be a lowlife.

I was shocked she tried to skip out on me. It was only about a $200 job if I recall. I wish I could have charged an extra hour for having to drive back out and get the realtors number but was happy to get paid.
 

Nige

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Messages
28,977
Location
G..G..G..Granville.........!! Fetch your cloth.
I like the verbiage from Nige though. Like the lien it takes some aggravation but the satisfaction of killing a machine or ripping out a driveway would be worth it. And it sends a message to everybody else that you are pretty crazy when you don't get paid.
In UK that sort of wording is pretty standard on quotations for “home improvement“ work, maybe for other types of work as well, and for exactly the reasons we’re discussing here. The materials used to carry out the work remain the property of the contractor and as such he has every right in law to remove them if payment has not been forthcoming from the customer - whether they have been “assembled” or not.
 

Tugger2

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2018
Messages
1,366
Location
British Columbia
Theres some people out there that seem to have no problem stiffing you.The marina owner i dealt with had judgments against him that he still wouldnt pay,but he still seemed to continue on as normal. Must be a missing part in the consience section of the brain.
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
I quit using small claims court because of that. You can win there pretty easy with a signed contract. Now you have to collect and if the deadbeat don't want to pay, how do you get the judgement done? Short of some physical altercation you will have to go back to court, this time with a lawyer to get a judge to garnish wages or forfeit property. I like the sound of denying use of the subject property. One other thought though, since I no longer pay to provide someone else's parts, I don't have an anchor I can pull in.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,257
Location
Canada
What if it was something like a concrete foundation that wasn't paid for? I don't think you'd be able to go take the concrete back. The judges can be stupid too and believe all kinds of lies that the deadbeats bring up. I remember reading about a contractor that wasn't paid for work he did on an acreage. Repeated attempts for payment failed so he dumped a fresh tandem load of wet manure on the driveway in front of the garage. The deadbeat couldn't get out of his garage till he cleaned it up and didn't have a loader or anything to pick it up.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
What if it was something like a concrete foundation that wasn't paid for? I don't think you'd be able to go take the concrete back. The judges can be stupid too and believe all kinds of lies that the deadbeats bring up. I remember reading about a contractor that wasn't paid for work he did on an acreage. Repeated attempts for payment failed so he dumped a fresh tandem load of wet manure on the driveway in front of the garage. The deadbeat couldn't get out of his garage till he cleaned it up and didn't have a loader or anything to pick it up.

From my understanding at least in Alberta here once any material is put on site you are not allowed to take it back for non payment regardless of what your contract says. The only exception is for equipment, tools, etc that are left/rented.

What the law says and what people do is a different story. If someone has a legitimate dispute for not paying it's one thing. But outright refuse to pay and try and rip me off? If they bend the rules so will I.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
It is a shame no one has any integrity these days. Everyone thinks they are owed something for nothing and everyone gets a trophy mentality. Pay your debts and honor your word. 'Mean what you say and do what you mean.' I still believe in the handshake agreement.

It is sad. I am currently dealing with one prick who has owed me money for 18 months. Subbed me a job, got paid from the owner and ran. Found out in my digging he's made a career of it, know of 2 other people at the very least he owes money to. I finally tracked him down. He has a very common name and is good at being a crook so it was extremely difficult to find anything. He was owed $140k from a company going under and I garnished what i'm owed, still haven't got it but expecting it in december.

Talking to the other 2 guys all 3 of us were very close to finding him and giving him what he deserves, but we knew it was much smarter to just get our money and not take any chances. But I will say this, I hope someone teaches him a lesson one day, I will be so happy.

I texted him about the garnish yesterday even, still lying his a$$ off trying to deny it and figure a way out.
 

cuttin edge

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,691
Location
NB Canada
Occupation
Finish grader operator
Any of you Alberta guys probably heard of Atcon, They were from where I live in New Brunswick. They were terrible for not paying, and they were a multi million dollar company. In the end, they were into the province for 50 million. A lot of little guys lost their shirt to this man. A year later his " Daughter" opened a new company called Greenfield.
 

92U 3406

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2017
Messages
3,099
Location
Western Canuckistan
Occupation
Wrench Bender
Non-payment is one of my fears about going independent. I don't know if a guy could just say right off the bat I want $XXX.XX up front before I touch your machine/truck. Or charge for parts and a couple hours labour up front? My 11+ years of skill and experience are worth something.
 

Mother Deuce

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2016
Messages
1,603
Location
New England
Non-payment is one of my fears about going independent. I don't know if a guy could just say right off the bat I want $XXX.XX up front before I touch your machine/truck. Or charge for parts and a couple hours labour up front? My 11+ years of skill and experience are worth something.
When I went in, I had the first 90 days of operating expense plus my wages stashed in a bank account. There is a lot of accounts that pay in 90. I was lucky I had about a 1/3 that paid in 30, another 1/3 that paid in 60 and the balance of them were 90 day money. After I got it knitted together after the first 3months it was OK. I had to pay attention though with those types of customers That I didn't stay ruin my cash flow. In the long run however. I only failed to collect 610 dollars.
 

92U 3406

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2017
Messages
3,099
Location
Western Canuckistan
Occupation
Wrench Bender
When I went in, I had the first 90 days of operating expense plus my wages stashed in a bank account. There is a lot of accounts that pay in 90. I was lucky I had about a 1/3 that paid in 30, another 1/3 that paid in 60 and the balance of them were 90 day money. After I got it knitted together after the first 3months it was OK. I had to pay attention though with those types of customers That I didn't stay ruin my cash flow. In the long run however. I only failed to collect 610 dollars.

In the area I initially wanted to set up in I know most of the folks who are shifty. Problem is after a little digging I found there are 2, possibly 3 other independents working in the area. There's only about 6,000 folks around here. If there was no one else in the area it'd be a decent gig. But having to fight with 2 or 3 others for market share I don't think its worth it lol.
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,865
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
Recently I got setup to accept credit cards. I have my lap top and billing program with me when I go out and new customers pay with the card before I leave. Seems to work perfect so far. Most of my stuff is less than $5,000 though so it might be a little tougher for companies working high dollar stuff.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,257
Location
Canada
I think you can set up your own payment terms to suit your business. If a customer has 90 day terms and you don't like it you can say no it won't work for me. I've seen a lot of invoices that say interest charged at 2% per month. If you get bonded you can take money up front. I think it also depends on the amount of the invoice. No reason a $1000 or less job can't be paid at the completion of the job.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
Non-payment is one of my fears about going independent. I don't know if a guy could just say right off the bat I want $XXX.XX up front before I touch your machine/truck. Or charge for parts and a couple hours labour up front? My 11+ years of skill and experience are worth something.

I think a lot of people would have an issue with that, not that I blame you for wanting that. If your average job cost would be like $1000 I personally would set up credit card and at the least just get a credit card number up front. You can put a mechanics lien on it, but not being able to hold the vehicle makes it a lot more difficult. In my experience virtually all pay eventually, just some very very slow. I just got paid yesterday from a job in early december. Most of my collecting issues is people complaining about a cost and holding back the last $500-$2000.

Unless you can make a ton more money I wouldn't do it. There is so many hassles between people wanting quotes, advertising, taxes, chasing people for money, etc that adds up to a ton more hours in a year. I would say to even consider it after all your expenses if you can't go on your own billing 20 hours a week and making the same as 40 hours working for someone else it's not worth it.
 

Flat Thunder Channel

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
378
Location
Ohio
You always should have some terms / payment method listed on your quotes and invoices. It lets the customer know in advance what to expect. Most won't read it, but if you have a problem tell them to reference the payment terms on the original quote/invoice. Makes everything super clear and obvious.

I am lucky enough to have a lawyer in the family. I help with her mechanical problems and she helps me out on the legal end of things. I don't run my own full time business, but I have had to play the 'let me consult my attorney, and by the way she is my sister' card a few times. The majority of the time simply mentioning you retain a legal service that cost nill usually gets people's attention. Luckily this has only come to a head on a few occasions ( dealing with dirt balls).

If your business encounters issues like this frequently maybe it would be worthwhile to have a legal service available. Maybe a local guy could charge you a flat rate to deal with situations whenever they occur? Your personal time is way too important and valuable to spend it chasing losers around.
 

suladas

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
1,731
Location
Canada
You always should have some terms / payment method listed on your quotes and invoices. It lets the customer know in advance what to expect. Most won't read it, but if you have a problem tell them to reference the payment terms on the original quote/invoice. Makes everything super clear and obvious.

I am lucky enough to have a lawyer in the family. I help with her mechanical problems and she helps me out on the legal end of things. I don't run my own full time business, but I have had to play the 'let me consult my attorney, and by the way she is my sister' card a few times. The majority of the time simply mentioning you retain a legal service that cost nill usually gets people's attention. Luckily this has only come to a head on a few occasions ( dealing with dirt balls).

If your business encounters issues like this frequently maybe it would be worthwhile to have a legal service available. Maybe a local guy could charge you a flat rate to deal with situations whenever they occur? Your personal time is way too important and valuable to spend it chasing losers around.

My quotes and invoices say payment due upon completion. Most people don't read it your right, or don't care and think they can dictate payment terms. A few generals have payment terms which I agree to. Like the December job its bill 25th of the month get paid end of next month, but they were still 3 months late on their own terms. Shockingly their own contract says interest for late payment, about 6% but I won't hold my breath expecting that to happen. The most common thing I get about delayed payment is waiting for a draw on the build. But in many cases when I do residential digs I don't even invoice until it's back filled, so on a $5000 job, around $4000 of it was done for 2-4 weeks before I even invoice which many don't understand. 30 days doesn't really bother me, but when it's getting 60+ I don't like it.
 

cuttin edge

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,691
Location
NB Canada
Occupation
Finish grader operator
We require half the money when we start to do the prep on your driveway, and the full amount once it's paved. That gives most home owners a couple weeks to have the rest of the payment ready
 
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