Solar Power for shop

[mitch504]

My question is this: Is there a better quick cheap solar option for lights and battery charging than a couple of Harbor Fake's 100 watt kits?

https://www.harborfreight.com/100-watt-solar-panel-kit-63585.html

I am currently working out of a couple of containers, and I was told no way in He[[ would I get power anywhere on my property for anything but a subdivision. (I wish the lady would have said over her dead body, I'd have power now ). I can run most things off my service truck despite that being a PITA, but I don't want to have to have an engine running to light a small space, or to put a 2 amp charge on a battery over the weekend.
When my father died, I lost my shop that I have made my living out of since 1992. This was due to governmental action that I will probably detail in a later thread. There had been a shop and trucks and equipment there since 1977, and my father and grandfather had farmed there since 1941. I also lost the home I lived in from 1973 to 1990, and then from 2014 to this summer. I thought I was going to build a better shop on the 20+ acres I still owned, but probably not. Our county was zoned a couple of years ago, and my land is now R1/2, despite there being nothing like that in the area, and the infrastructure doesn't exist to make that use possible (no sewer among other things.

Uhh, rant over for the moment, thanks for the advice to come.

 

[Delmer]

Yes, this is an easy one. HF is a terrible deal in this regard. Too much money for "amorphous" panels and questionable quality components. You want any "poly crystaline" panel from any reputable manufacturer of solar panels, should be about $1/watt in any quantity. You might save a few bucks by finding a local "group buy" where they order in quantity, or connect to the local hippy community and find a set of old panels that somebody is replacing. The problem with used panels is somebody will think they're worth half what they paid for them years ago, even if that's 10x what new ones cost.

The panels are the easy part, a charge controller is also fairly simple. You won't need a charge controller for simple battery charging in the daylight hours, but anything more you'll need one. The more complicated part is do you want to run DC or AC? With LED lights these days I'd stick with DC, and a generator or inverter for heavy shop use. There are DC to DC converters for charging batteries, or you could set everything up 12V and let batteries charge days only.

Also, don't be afraid to use your retired but still good batteries for storage. They're not deep cycle, or even marine, but they'll last just fine if you use enough of them for low discharge.

 

[John Shipp]

We use aluminum framed panels on our container, bolted to a south angled frame so it can handle storms. Then we cut the connections and hard wire to decent fine multi strand, into waterproof boxes, trunking (conduit). Then solar controller & insulated battery bank. Inverter for small, mains usage & chargers to run off, etc. All lights are the sealed dc LEDs from marine supplies, there is a much better range today than before. 12v toggle switches, there are cool distribution boxes (fused) available, and big wire to minimise volt loss over distance. It's amazing how these distances add up, and annoying when an LED flickers down the far end of a thin wire.

 

[PJ The Kid]

My uncle ran solar back in the 90's for about a summer. Had the batteries, inverters, panels, breakers, everything. Even with nearly a grand in deep cycle batteries, it would get dim pretty quick on cloudy days and running the smaller 220v compressor was not even an option any time but july/august. That said, he was completely off grid when he did that and had no backup power from the lines.

 

[Birken Vogt]

I work on off grid solar/generator systems for a living but I can't really answer this question directly. The only experience I have with small solar systems is that they make the owners miserable but that might be different for you who work in a technical field and can understand limitations of things. We tell people for a serious house size system don't even consider it for less than $30k but you might be able to get by with less but still it all adds up if you want it to work and not be the one working on it. Ask me questions if you want.

 

[Delmer]

Birken Vogt, I was hoping you'd chime in. What do you think of a lighting and battery charging only solar system? Don't need to run an air arc off an inverter, but don't want to leave a generator running over a weekend to charge up some batteries either, or have lights to find stuff in the dark.

Assuming that you know you'll kill the batteries if you leave the lights on all weekend, or try to run a heater.

 

[Birken Vogt]

It could work. Especially if you set your battery charging to only run during the day time. I am sure all you guys know about lead acid batteries. Your house batteries need to stay charged at all times if you want them to last. The lower they get and the longer they set that way the more they are getting used up. Way better to get grid power if at all possible. But with all the prohibiters out there you have to do what it takes. One thing I will say for this at the current time is go with Outback for small systems and not other brands such as a glorified RV inverter or something made by a giant electrical conglomerate. You can buy some level of kits but lots of assembly required. You might need to hire an electrician and a good one too, not just somebody out of the phone book. Lots of intuition and judgement involved in these systems.

 

[John Shipp]

To avoid being miserable with these systems you have to think like the old miller with his windmill, to a degree. If it's a grey day, only run a couple of lights at a time. With the battery bank, you can only use the cream on the top. For example, with a 12v system in the hrs of darkness, (ie no incoming charge) a healthy battery bank may sit at 12.65v. So running a few good led lights in a container workshop, say 4 batteries in the bank, the volts will stay up above 12.3 if you run the lights half the night. This is using the cream on the top.
If it's bright during day, go ahead and manually clip some other batteries on to charge, but these will need controlling (either manually or electronically) if the banks voltage is run low already (12.2v) and clouds start going over for any length of time. A generator will be needed at some time, a run of grey days will mean running a genny for half a day just to push the batteries up, now and again.

We've been using this set up for ~15 years now and ruined a lot of batteries early on. But our latest set up is working well and we can largely ignore it, it's ingrained into us now to keep an eye on it without losing a lot of time over it! It's great having lighting available 24hrs a day, without having to start a noisy generator every time you want to step inside where it's dark.

Will try and get some pictures in a couple of days.

 

[CM1995]

Mitch just curious why the power company said you could not get power? What are the SC rules for power company's?

I know your in SC and I'm in AL but in AL the power company is required by law to run electricity service to a residence, not a commercial, farm or other property not deemed a "residence". Is there any such requirement in your state? Just throwing some ideas out - a well used single wide is pretty cheap.

I feel your pain on loosing property and fighting zoning laws... it's a long story as well.

 

[td25c]

Same way In Indiana CM . Our rural electric is also required by law to bring the juice .

On the other hand they will present the customer with the bill for the line . Seems like it just keeps going up like everything else .

Typical 200 yard run from the power lines to a home site is 4 to 5 thousand .

Sorry to hear about the situation an loss of your Father Mitch .

 

[check]

The panels are the easy part, a charge controller is also fairly simple. You won't need a charge controller for simple battery charging in the daylight hours, but anything more you'll need one. The more complicated part is do you want to run DC or AC? With LED lights these days I'd stick with DC, and a generator or inverter for heavy shop use.

There have been some changes. For one thing, the new panels all require MPPT type charge controllers. Sure they are a lot cheaper but they don't maintain a constant voltage as well as the old ones. That's what the MPPT controller is for and they ain't cheap.
Another thing, nowadays it's nearly impossible to find panels for 12 volt systems unless you get some used ones from someone who is upgrading to a larger system. That may be a worthwhile option, buy all his components cheap and use RV appliances.
The new systems are either going to be 24 VDC or 48 VDC going into an inverter.
My system is 24 VDC. I use 24 VDC for fridge, freezer, lighting, laptop and DSL modem, an inverter for other loads. My inverter is off 99% of the time.
There are tradeoffs to going dual-voltage, though. For one thing 24 VDC lighting is very expensive and there is only one place that sells suitable ones and they are in Canada. Also, low voltage requires much heavier wiring and copper ain't cheap, either.

 

[John Shipp]

Had a quick look on usa e--y was surprised to see that you have less range of 12v panels than here.

https://ebay.com/itm/Coleman-80-Wat...nd-80W-12V-Free-Ship-/172389049599?nav=SEARCH

Not sure if this link works, but these are the similar kind of 12v panels we can get hold of in UK (19-21v open circuit).

 

[td25c]

What's ironic is my Amish buddies will have an electric line running past there place . They won't hook on to it ......

They will use a diesel engine to power the main works of the shop by direct drive , electric generator & hydro drive . Pretty elaborate systems & go to allot of trouble to not be on the electric line running rite past there place .

Only thing I can figure is they don't want to be part of the establishment & lower themselves by tying on to the electric line ?

Damn Rebels !

 

[Birken Vogt]

There have been some changes. For one thing, the new panels all require MPPT type charge controllers. Sure they are a lot cheaper but they don't maintain a constant voltage as well as the old ones. That's what the MPPT controller is for and they ain't cheap.

Not really, current is completely flat across the curve so you can use a higher voltage panel but you will lose out on that voltage that was available. Still worlds cheaper than it was in the olden days, per watt or otherwise.

As for a cheaper MPPT controller, look at a Midnite Kid, they are good and they are cheap.

Another thing, nowadays it's nearly impossible to find panels for 12 volt systems unless you get some used ones from someone who is upgrading to a larger system. That may be a worthwhile option, buy all his components cheap and use RV appliances.
The new systems are either going to be 24 VDC or 48 VDC going into an inverter.
My system is 24 VDC. I use 24 VDC for fridge, freezer, lighting, laptop and DSL modem, an inverter for other loads. My inverter is off 99% of the time.
There are tradeoffs to going dual-voltage, though. For one thing 24 VDC lighting is very expensive and there is only one place that sells suitable ones and they are in Canada. Also, low voltage requires much heavier wiring and copper ain't cheap, either.

Just do yourself a favor and go with 48 volt for new installations if you can swing it or 24v if you absolutely have to, and all normal AC loads. Cheaper that way than to have to rig a low voltage DC system these days.

At least that is my experience, I cater to people who just want it to work and not have to fool with it.

 

[Delmer]

Except he started this talking about a harbor freight kit to run some lights and charge some batteries. Any lights you buy these days for AC are LED, so they will certainly be LED for battery power, no heavy wiring needed to run some LEDs for a container. And charging batteries is also easy with DC power.

Anything else uses the generator. I've seen some interesting Amish setups. Around here they don't do anything besides a line shaft. Other communities will run engine driven welders, engine driven bulk tanks, air power etc. I can see the advantage of a Kubota hooked to a line shaft to run the shop for sure.

 

[mitch504]

Hey guys, thanks for all the responses. Birken, I was hoping you'd chime in.

Like I said in my first post, I'm really not looking for anything out of this system but to run a few LED lights for a short time, trickle charge batteries (1-2 amp charge rate), and incidental short time loads. Anything else, I'll use engine power.

I am very familiar with battery-inverter systems. I have had an inverter on my service truck for years, and I use it all the time. I am very impressed with what 3 fully charged series 31 batteries will do, and still start the truck. I very seldom start the welder just for it's generator. Believe it or not, the inverter I have used for over 10 years is a Harbor Freight one, made from the finest available Chinesium. I bought it for a proof-of-concept model, and thought I'd buy a better one if it works, but it's still doing fine.

I did go ahead and buy the HF kit, since with the New Years sale, and a couple coupons, I was able to get 100 watts worth of panels, a charge controller, 2 bright LED lights, and a bunch of wire in the kit, and another 2000 watt inverter, for just over $200. It took me less than an hour to put it all together and see it operate, so again, this will be a cheap proof-of-concept.

I hope not to need this much, since I think I have found a law that will let me force the County to let me have power, but it will take a lawsuit, or the threat thereof.

 

[mitch504]

CM, my problem isn't with the power co-op, they are great, it's with county planning and zoning.

The county hired some over-educated idiots to plan future land use. We rejected zoning referendums in this county 6 times, but at the last meeting I attended, they actually said we were wasting our time, because they would just wait until enough outsiders moved in to pass it. It worked.

My property, which was a 32 acre block of pastures and woods with a house, a couple of barns, a 2 acre gravel yard and shop, now has an 11 acre strip out of the middle with the house, buildings, and yard on that strip. I had a 28 x 110 x 14 shop with 8" heavily reinforced concrete floors, that I built and payed for myself.

I now have just over 20 acres of pastures and woods. On the 7 acre strip I have 2 containers, what of MY gravel I was able to steal before I was stopped, and everything else I own in a pile that I am sorting out slowly.

The problem is that the county has zoned my property "R1/2" which doesn't allow anything except houses on 1/2 acre lots, and amenities such as clubhouses and pools owned by the subdivision. What makes this so asinine is that there is nothing vaguely like that within 15 miles of here, and it will be at least 10 years before it could be built, since nobody is even talking about building a sewer system or anything needed to support it. It takes a minimum of a 5 acre lot to get a permit for a septic system on our soil type.

There is a power pole on my property about 40' from where I want to put my temporary pole for my container, and the co-op says once I put up my pole and get approval from the county, it's less than an hours work to hang a transformer and hook me up, and will cost nothing but the monthly power bill.

The county planner said no way would I get approval for power anywhere on my property except for a conforming house, and that no shop would be allowed under any circumstances.

I wanted to put single phase, 200 amp power to this container shop for a few months, and if I didn't succeed in buying MY shop back from the federal government, which looks doubtful, I was going to go over on the 13 acre side and build a new shop with 3-phase. For what it's worth, no one would be able to see my new shop without coming onto my property.

 

[John C.]

Sounds like you got a developer from the Seattle area moved into your turf and paid off the county. If it follows the plan that went on here you will see a huge tax increase to try and force you to sell your land to the said developer or they will declare a big part as environmentally sensitive and prevent you from doing anything to change the state of the land. Won't let you run a disc across a pasture as it might harm a frog.

I feel for you.

 

[mitch504]

John, what I'm facing is that 20 miles east of here is one of the fastest growing areas in the country, all stopped in 2007 of course, but picking up again now. The planners have decreed that my area will be the eventual westward extension, but there is a lot of area to be developed first. We already have plenty of those developers here, we didn't need any of yours.

If I could sell this place for development, I would. I would move 40 miles west where I have some good customers, and no influx yet. I will probably be retired before the infrastructure is here for the kind of development they are reserving my land for. There are empty developments with sewers, paved roads, and amenities that have sat since 2007, and thousands of acres of land with sewer access between here and there.

When they zoned the county a few years ago, they brought in planners with the mission of getting the most tax revenue eventually. They have no problem with forcing me to sit here for 10-20 years to keep it open and available.

 

[Jonas302]

keep a cord and charger handy so anytime you need to run your welder gen set it can top off the battery's