Sitting on the fence

[Kellogg Report]

3D machine control can be a great tool if implemented correctly.

However, industry estimates say that only a small portion of the earthmoving machines in use today that could benefit from machine control are actually utilizing the technology.

Which brings me to my question:
If you are one of those who have considered 3D machine control but have yet to take the plunge, what keeps you from making the investment?
System cost? Data preparation issues? Lack of local support? Questioning the accuracy claims? Ease of use worries? Operator resistance? Worried about having a stakeless site if something goes wrong?

Please tell.

 

[Boophoenix]

From my perspective it's the cost at #1 spot. I am slowly moving that way though.

I purchased a GRS-1 rover the end of last year to learn with a little in spare time before it had to be making me money. I just went for the submeter acuracy at present with plans to upgrade when I know a little more of what I'm doing with it and have the spare funds for some training classes.

I also recently aquired a dozer set up for 3d when I'm ready.

Up next comes ease of use and data prep.

Acuracy lingers in my mind, but with as many people using that there are it has to be close enough for government work I'd guess.


It's probably a mute point for me as my size doesn't really warant the expense. I do work with a few other people of a larger size than me .that will not likely go beyond a rotary laser. I'm thinking when I'm set up it may place me better with them and if not I'll just be more efficent on my own.

 

[freakz]

We specialise solely on using GPS, when you have the people with the skills on site and in the office you wont see any more pegs!

Now we occasionally highlight the surveyors errors!

Have a look at our web site for some automated machine control pictures.

http://www.pdexcavations.com.au/gpsmachinecontrol/gpsmachinecontrol.htm

I am currently looking into getting a GRS-1 RTK system too. No base station makes it even easier!

 

[DataMan]

I have been involved with machine control for over 8 years. It is not only for the big guys. Smaller contractors have used it effectively. There are many good articles on machine control at machinecontrolonline.com
The biggest concern is service from your dealer. Find the best dealer and stick with their equipment. Data would be the second major obsticle. If they tell you, "You can get the surface from the engineer", run away quickly.
I provide the data needed for the machines and if you have any questions or comments please do not hesitate to call or e-mail me. gds3d@comporium.net gds3d.com
I have many examples of the detail your surface will need to be in to get the most out of your equipment.

Thad Glankler, PE
Glankler Data Services

 

[Kellogg Report]

I know of many companies that have come to the same conclusion as Boophoenix, -that having machine control will not only improve your efficiency, but having this technology it will improve your company's standing.

freakz: Are you looking at using SmartNet Aus or Position Partners' network? (Maybe there are more options now, -I haven't been to SA in a year). What is the monthly subscription price?

 

[freakz]

freakz: Are you looking at using SmartNet Aus or Position Partners' network? (Maybe there are more options now, -I haven't been to SA in a year). What is the monthly subscription price?

As position partners sell Topcon here we have been looking at there network. I think its around $1800 per year.

But if it saves us the headache of setting up a base station at everyjob it wont take long to pay for itself.

Our decision for choosing what GPS solution to use was really based on local support.

 

[Boophoenix]

I hit the jack pot here. The state DOT has a network I can get on for 300 a year with a 3 year contract as apposed to topcons for 199 a month when I bought my GRS-1. I came across something in the past week or two looked like they may have went up to 300 a month.

I've been kind of laying in wait for the yearly cycle to come around. If memory serves me correctly it's 150 setup/maintance a year and 150 a year access . The left over months when you activate mid year are 25 a month.

The negative side is the DOT doesn't give the guarantee topcon does for up time. Also not promises it will be available after the five year trial run ( the next cycle will give me 3 years of access I think ). How ever if the need arises I'll just pick up a base. I'll need one any way if I hit the point it's returning on the investment for areas of no cell coverage.

On a side note it's good to see some activity on GPS. Most here seem partial to trimple, I went topcon as it was the system I was around when my interest was peaked.

In my tinkering with my GRS-1 no network or external antenna it's been as close as 8' and as far off as 50. I think the new DOT cycle starts next month so I'm hoping to jump on the network then pick up a PGA-1 antenna for it. At which point that will just leave the OAF file I think for the claimed cm accuracy.

On the service side my sales rep specialise in machine control. He wasn't up to date on the GRS-1, but that was the rover I wanted so wasn't a relivant issue to me. I've found Topcon University to be very helpful on the website and calling them directly. I had some connection issues with there server and Jason went out of his way to help me with them.

 

[Flewy_86]

Out of interest, what is the going rate for a full Trimble/Topcon kit in the states these days?

Also what is the support like in the background i.e Data prep, on site assistance, spare parts supply etc?


Cheers, Flewy

 

[zhkent]

I'm sitting on the fence. The ag side is getting pretty good accuracy, some with there own networks. I heard a rumor that there will be a system that will use cell phone towers as reference.
Also my needs, and perhaps the needs of some others that do smaller jobs, would in no way warrant a site map.
What I would like to be able to do is lock on to a ground elevation, put in a percent of drainage and go.
Granted this can be done with a laser, but the time savings and convenience of having auto grade on the machine and ready to go at all times would be great.
And what about small building pads, wouldn't those earthmovers like a simple system that you lock on to a set elevation, adjust up or down and go?

 

[Kellogg Report]

Several manufacturers of 3D machine control systems are able to run the machines off of a GPS/GNSS network. -Meaning you use a cell phone modem to get corrections instead of setting up a local base station. Availability of this service depends on where you live and cost varies. -Check with your local dealers.

All major brands of 3D machine control systems allow the operator to do what you describe. -Type in an elevation and/or a slope to hold without having to run off of a prepared digital model. The only problem is that you will have to pay the price of a fully functional system even though you only want to use these simple features. It's questionable if you can realize a return on your investment by using it only in this manner.

 

[watglen]

Thats the problem right there kellog. Scalability sucks on these systems.

I would say the main impediment to adoption of these systems is the confusion about the technology. Even how to elaborate on that statement has me wondering.

An example: Trimble uses 900mhz for my basestation. Topcon comes in and explains why thier 450 mhz base is better, cheaper, more functional etc. But in the end, they both do the same job. It is very confusing for people to understand how two companies come up with two seemingly completely different solutions, using completely different hardware configurations to do the same thing.

Right now, there is no standardization between brands, no standardization between hardware, or software for that matter. Every company does it thier own way. Some work better than others.

Back to scalability, a laser and a stickman will cost around 10k. But to get the machine to do what the stickman does, you have to add another 140k to that. So everyone looks for a system that you can adopt in stages. Companies have responded by creating a hodgpodge of bits and pieces that do a little bit of the task without doing anything well.

I own an ag gps system, several hand held systems, laser grading systems, and machine control system. I have a detailed working knowledge of the whole range of function. Yet, when i walk into a booth at a trade show i can still be dumbfounded by the range of products available, and how they all work together.

I think that in order to improve adoption of this technology, there needs to be a couple things happen. The systems need to mature. The GPS signals are standardized, but the correction signals are still changing and improving. Until they settle down, confusion will reign.

Also, and more importantly, users need to be educated about what exactly the systems will do, and how they do it. Wikipedia has some excellent info on GPS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gps gives a very detailed history of the development of the gps system. It gets pretty crazy technical near the end, but the first part is pretty layman. Very good reading for someone trying to learn the basics.

Lastly, more people on the project design end need to be able to code the data files. Right now, adoption of gps grade control is limited to large projects. This is simply because the projects are large enough to justify the investment in training and tools to be able to produce the data files. It takes a ton of training to get good at that end of the system. It can only be done as an in house system right now, where the person who pays for the tools etc, gets to keep the payback.

Once a person understands how the system works, what components do what, it becomes self-evident where the money needs to go, and exactly how the system can make you money.

Personally, i can't wait.

 

[Kellogg Report]

watglen raises some interesting, -and valid, points.

Unfortunately, lack of complete transparency during the sales process can often contribute to the general confusion. For example: 450MHz and 900 MHz radios are as different as apples and oranges. 450MHz radios transmit continuously on a single UHF frequency. (The frequency can be changed, however). This makes them susceptible to interference. They have low bandwidth, but very good range. They also require an FCC license to operate. 900MHz radios hop between a set pattern of frequencies and are thus less susceptible to interference. They have great bandwidth, but low range. 900MHz radios are only approved for use in the US, Australia and New Zealand.

A salesman may try to promote the technology that he is most comfortable with and/or the technology that his supplier prefers. The bottom line is that the radio technology should be selected based on the user's needs.

Standardization of correctional signal are already here, -in theory. RTCM is an open protocol for transmitting GNSS corrections, but for a variety of reasons, the manufacturers' proprietary formats are still in wide use. As more and more GNSS networks become operational and users start getting their corrections via the internet, this will become less of a problem.

Scalability is a problem of economics. With two slope sensors, a rotation sensor, a simple user interface and a valve driver, a grader is capable of automatically holding a set cross slope. If you want it to grade to a plane, you need to add a rotating laser and a laser sensor. If you want 3D functionality, you need to add a GPS base station w/ radio, a machine GPS receiver, a machine radio and a more capable user interface/computer. This is a lot of money, so it stands to reason that 3D systems will not give a good return on investment if they are used only to grade simple planes. Salesmen need to be be sure the customer understands this.

You are right in saying the data-portion of 3D machine control can be a challenge. However, smaller operators may use one of the many data-prep services that specialize on generating 3D data files from digital or paper plans. This can be a good approach, -getting the productivity-enhancing benefits of the system but without having to invest in the manpower and software needed to generate the data.

I agree that the manufacturers of these system must make an effort to standardize. Perhaps it will take pressure from the heavy equipment manufacturers to get it done, though.

 

[jd450dozer]

I want to wire my 650 dozer for GPS Indicated ( I Think ). Which brand? I work between Companies that use Trimble and topcon. Would like to keep my cost down as I intend to eat the wiring cost so that I can at least offer the costumer the option of using their equipment. The problem is obviously that if I wire for one brand it does me no good for a customer that uses the other brand, how hard is it to come onto a job using one brand and set the opposite brand up to run on that job? Keep in mind I have zero experience with either system.

Any thoughts?

 

[Richardg]

Several manufacturers of 3D machine control systems are able to run the machines off of a GPS/GNSS network. -Meaning you use a cell phone modem to get corrections instead of setting up a local base station. Availability of this service depends on where you live and cost varies. -Check with your local dealers.

I would not advise a contractor to rely on GNSS reference base networks. Some networks use virtual bases (not a big deal but I believe they can sometimes fib on data/signal strength) not to mention it a contractor is working in busy areas the cell phone signal latency could become an issue. I don't know a lot about radios, But at this time I would think that they provide the most consistent connection to a reference base.

I work for a survey company and would like to learn more about machine control grading, just out of curiosity sake. We do a lot of stake-out work for contractors yet we have never been approached to create grading models.

 

[zhkent]

The John Deere has a RTK system that has a program where you can drive a drain, the program maps it, then lets you choose a finished drain profile.
Hardware plus a $4,000 charge to unlock, plus subscribtion to local rtk provider.
Also estimates the yardage that needs moved to finish the drain to your chosen cut/fill profile.
Do the other systems have this capability?
Most fields I work on have a series of seperate terraces (drains) that take a couple hours each. I don't need to come back and match grades the next day. So is there something economical that could be set up in the field to run off of?
The laser works, but it would sure be nice to be able to map it just driving it once, see what I've got, profile it, and go. If the percentage of fall varies in the length of the terrace that would be possible with gps, also the terraces that are shaped in a U or Z are not condusive to a laser.

 

[Shimmy1]

I use Ditch Pro by AGPS (advanced geo-positioning systems). Gets corrections from RTK base station. Works great for the most part. I can adjust my slope if needed without having to re-survey the entire ditch. Just have to remember when you change it you have to be at low end because it recalculates to that point. Only thing I have had been issues with is my elevation seems to be unstable sometimes. I get a little angry when my numbers are screwing around as much as half a tenth each way. Maybe someone can chime in. Am I expecting too much?

 

[Old-dirtfan]

Everything that I have seen, heard, or read, tells us that a GPS system relying on RTK and current satellite data, is only accurate to + or -, 1 tenth of a foot vertically. To get more accurate you need something like Topcon's MM GPS or the newest laser technology. Actually if you are getting within .05 of a foot accuracy + or -, on a machine that is moving around then,,,,,, that's not bad!

 

[Shimmy1]

Most of the time I'm within 0.01. If I set up the laser anywhere I check with the grade rod I'm within 0.02-0.03. Sounds like I should be more than satisfied.

 

[SVTSHELBYGT500]

If you set on the fence to long you will be losing money and jobs ! I waited till the right jobs came along and jumped right in ! Ordered topcon base and rover,data collector and used it a week ! Liked what it could do ! Next move was a new jd 700k with i g c . Dealer installed 3 d m c 2 system and have never looked back ! I'm a small site contractor and it nice just go to work without stakes !!!

 

[jerryshaw]

These are all capital expenditures and should take care before making any decision to buy these type of heavy vehicles that can be optimal used.