single axle dump + 20 ton tag weight questions

[stumpjumper83]

So I've been using a ford f-800 single axle dump & a eager beaver 9 ton tag for my equipment moving needs which has been 19k pounds and under. So far I have a deere 450c, 550g, and a 7 ton takeuchi to move around. I'm at my trailers capacity, and I would like to get a 30-40k pound excavator and move it myself. Question is this, will a 20 ton tag put my over allowable axle weights?

The other option is to get a tractor and lowboy and use that for my transport needs. I don't want to go to a tandem or trike dump because of the type of work I do, tight sites & such. Or if I did get another dump I couldn't sell my single that I already have.

 

[Willis Bushogin]

I was in your situation a few years ago
I guess one question is, do you have a CDL license, Im sure in my state if you dont have a CDL, you are in violation, moving that weight with anything. Im thinking the combination weight of your truck, trailer and a 550, is more than 26,000 lb, but thats another story

I bought a truck and lowboy, when I bought my excavator Cat 320, I was able to move it anytime I needed. This is a big expense and you have to justify it. Sometimes its better to hire someone to move you, unless you are moving several times a week. My work slowed down and I sold the truck and lowboy and hired someone to move me, it cost about $200 a move. Now i call them and tell them where it is and where its going and I dont even have to be there
Good Luck

 

[stumpjumper83]

Yes, I have a class a cdl. Ford is tagged at 50k combo now. Truck, trailer, and dozer are 38.5k. I'm a full time, self employed dirt ferry, so something is always going somewhere. I rented a daewoo 170 for the job I'm on now, just completed actually, and that 48" bucket sure made loading out 50+ dumptruck loads alot easier tham using the takeuchi, and alot handier than the trackloader.

 

[CRAFT]

So I've been using a ford f-800 single axle dump & a eager beaver 9 ton tag for my equipment moving needs which has been 19k pounds and under. So far I have a deere 450c, 550g, and a 7 ton takeuchi to move around. I'm at my trailers capacity, and I would like to get a 30-40k pound excavator and move it myself. Question is this, will a 20 ton tag put my over allowable axle weights?

So here is the way I see it ?

I would assume that the F-800 is NOT an air brakes equiped truck ...... I'm pretty positive that you can NOT get a trailer that size without being an air brake set-up..... But if your truck is LUCKY-YOU ! ..............The next thing I would look at is the tire cap under your truck, take the gross rating from all 6 tires and add it up .... also go find a trailer that you like and would possibly buy and check out those tires as well. Find out the empty (Tare weight) of what both truck and new trailer would weigh ..... do your deductions and that'll give you a good idea of what you could carry (Net weight)

That's a pretty basic way to calculate where you are going for totals ........ I know there are gonna be some smart guys out there that will come back with gotta check out axle ratings and blah blah blah ....... But in my experience, USUALLY the axles are rated way higher than what the total cap of the tires are under the rig ... with out seeing your rig up close a guy will never be able to give you the exact answer you're looking for.

Eg:
I have an L-8000 single axle Louiseville tractor (no deck or dump) on air w/11.00x24.5 16 ply rubber, that I have been moving my Cat 312 w/thumb and full guarding that weighs 14.7 metric tonnes, or 32,407 lbs on a pintle hitch tow Trail-King TKT40, which is a tandem axled tilt-deck trailer also with air brakes .... the rubber under the trailer is 255/22.5R 16 ply

I am NEVER over loaded, BUT can never get enough weight on the tractor to prevent spinning out in tough situations (up hill or bad loose gravel or muddy rds, snow, ect.) but because you have a gravel box you can throw your extra buckets or what ever in there to gain traction, but will that put you over in your State ?? .... on wet pavement or dry rds no problem.

The tandems do tow a little harder behind a single axle truck, with the weight you are hoping to tow it tends to want to push you around and will give you some challenges, BUT is do able !

JMHO from a far away Canuck ....LOL ....Good-luck !

 

[stumpjumper83]

No, the ford has air, its a 7.8 diesel, bout 250hp, w/ a 5x2 tranny, 10' 7yd box. Not sure about the air to the rear though, it has 3 storage tanks for air, but no gladhands, handspike, or trailer valve, so I've been running electric trailers. Truck runs 11x22.5's all the way around.

Think I'm going to get a quote for adding air to the rear, buy a new 20 ton tag, then I can rent excavators till I find the one I like.

 

[CRAFT]

No, the ford has air, its a 7.8 diesel, bout 250hp, w/ a 5x2 tranny, 10' 7yd box. Not sure about the air to the rear though, it has 3 storage tanks for air, but no gladhands, handspike, or trailer valve, so I've been running electric trailers. Truck runs 11x22.5's all the way around.

Think I'm going to get a quote for adding air to the rear, buy a new 20 ton tag, then I can rent excavators till I find the one I like.

As I said .... you are Lucky then ...LOL .... yah the three tanks are 1-wet tank and 1 for each axle dry tanks ....to add the hand valve, trailer valve in dash and plumbing to the rear shouldn't be that costly .... you'll probably have to upgrade your hitch to a larger cap pintle as well (cheap)..... sounds like your truck is way newer than mine it's an '81 w/3208 Cat @225hp (apparently...lol...more like 180hp) natural asp. and same tranny............ if was to add a box that would be the max length I could go is 10' .... it does very well for what it is, as long as you're not in a hurry ...... but, again as far as the truck you have it'll do just fine ... check your State GVW reg's

Hope this Helped ! .... have fun ...Cheers !

 

[tuney443]

You should be fine on all your axles,of course that does depend on how you place that excavator on the trailer and the length of the trailer from pintle eye to center of forward axle in determining tongue weight that's bearing down on the truck's rear axle.Your CGVW will exceed that 50K limit,but I've never seen DOT check that by me,doesn't mean it can't happen,but I would run with it.There's lots of 33K lb single axle dumps by me doing the exact thing you're contemplating.

 

[ctkiteboarding]

same set up here but go with a 25t tag trailer ,your individual axle weights will get close to overweight depending on load placement but it works well for me, the front axle on the trailer will be over weight when you have the machine set on the" sweet spot " for real world towing ,my trailer has three 22,500 axles and i have not scaled each individual axle but it tows very well and if im scaled by dot ,well then ill know how close the front axle is to 22,500 and can move the machine back to get it legal, but prefer the tongue weight forward good luck but go right to the 25t trailer:usa

 

[CM1995]

Do you have to worry about the trucks air compressor being big enough to supply enough air for the truck and trailer? My 54K GVW tag has it's own tanks, that the truck would fill but if you were using your brakes a lot and the trucks compressor couldn't keep up, then it would become a problem. Don't know if that would be an issue or not, just asking.:beatsme

 

[ctkiteboarding]

no issues here , this trailer has tanks for its systems and the truck holds air fine

 

[stumpjumper83]

Why go to the 25 ton? I have a 7 ton excavator, and two 9 ton deere crawlers, I want to add a 120-150 size excavator to the fleet. I want the excavator to be 102", so not oversize required. I have a friend that moves a daewoo 170 III with a tandem dump and a eager beaver 20 xpt, he said he went to a tandem truck to be legal on his axles, and that the single was close, I fuggured that I'd downsize the hoe by 5 ton and be fine.

 

[ctkiteboarding]

just my opinion but a 24k hoe like a 110 would most likely be legal , a 130 to 160 size hoe in the 36k range plus the trailer might be pushing it and not even close with a hammer or grapple, the largest issue is the individual axle rating and load placement.
a 20t most likely will have to have a very heavy tongue load and then the front axle of the trailer will be overweight no matter where the load sits on the trailer.

I was right where you are when i upgraded from my 12t with elec brakes , lots of guys pulling 20ton's maxed out , its really hard on the trailer so most looked like **** in a few years and looked heavy going down the hi-way.

the 25t will pull like its on rails, no tail wagging, also legal with almost any load placement on the trailer and will have the extra stopping when it counts, but that costs abit more and at the end of the day its your $$$ .

I bought my BWS ART25 for 11k used in very very solid condition ,tires and brakes all 85% or better ,just some paint fade and scratch's as well as some rim surface rust.
hook up to your truck and load whatever you think you will own and see , im sure you will not regret the extra trailer under your machine but will regret the 20t if a great deal comes along on a slightly larger machine ,

either way post some pics with you final purchase and good luck with it

 

[CRAFT]

Do you have to worry about the trucks air compressor being big enough to supply enough air for the truck and trailer?........... that the truck would fill but if you were using your brakes a lot and the trucks compressor couldn't keep up ...... Don't know if that would be an issue or not, just asking.:beatsme

.....Oh man here we go again!.....:Banghead

ctkite ..... the question WAS "If the Air Compressor is big ENOUGH (CFM) to suppy both Truck and Trailer " .... not how many tanks or how well it holds air, which it should anyways .... i'm sure the Laws are everywhere the same across N. America, that every axle with air-brakes has to have its own reservoir tank

no issues here , this trailer has tanks for its systems and the truck holds air fine

hmmmmmm.....

Our DOT Laws here in B.C. require a certain minimum amout of CFM for "X" number of axles .... I know exactly where CM1995 was going with his question ..... years ago when I had my six axle logging configuration the 'ol 475 twin turbo did OK, but when I began to pull super "B"trains (8 axle config.) the Big Cam barely was adequate (Cats used twin piston comps w/higher cfm ratings, than the then Cummins power plants had a poor recovery rate)

........the largest issue is the individual axle rating and load placement............ and then the front axle of the trailer will be overweight no matter where the load sits on the trailer.

I'm trying to figure out how the front axle would ever be over loaded ?? .....all trailers, even tridems, are set up with axle equilizer suspensions ....I agree on the sweet spot and tongue weight issues ..... over loading one axle only happens like the trailer I just got rid of and that had dexter torflex axles and then it was only if the trailer was nose high or low ........

.....JMHO ....cheers

 

[ctkiteboarding]

guess i didnt follow on the recover rate question but it can easily be tested on your rig with a watch

the axle weight question i though i was on it with the explanation but maybe im off, if the machine is loaded up front to get the trailer under gvw limit and the truck has substantial tongue weight then the 1st axle should have more weight on it then the 2nd axle ? which could be over the axle WR

 

[stumpjumper83]

Stopped in at the local truck garage and asked my friendly wrench bender to quote adding air to the rear of my dump, he told me 5-7 hundred. I smiled, I was thinking it was going to be worse than that. So now its off to shop for a 20 ton tag trailer. Going to try and talk to kauffman tomorrow... time will tell.

 

[ctkiteboarding]

not sure what your budget is but really consider getting a larger trailer then what you think you need or most likely you will be buying again in the future.
also a good used unit might be a better use of funds as a new trailer will lose 30% if not more as you pull it off the lot, (not to mention taxes OUCH!!)
lots of solid eager beavers or similar high end trailers out there for 5k to 8k.

glad the air to rear isn't to costly and as always PICS please

 

[stumpjumper83]

We will see what the options are. Others in the area are using 20 ton tags and getting by just fine. I'm currently using a 9 ton tripple axle. With a 20 ton I can go from a 550g dozer to a 750c or a 5m/n, add a 140 hoe with the truck that I have now. Eventually I'd like to get to a tandem or triaxle dump, but no hurry on that. All the locals will run dumps for 70 or 75 an hr, why compete to loose money.

Lately the dozer has been the busy item, and thats good cause I like runnin it.

 

[ctkiteboarding]

We will see what the options are. Others in the area are using 20 ton tags and getting by just fine. I'm currently using a 9 ton tripple axle. With a 20 ton I can go from a 550g dozer to a 750c or a 5m/n, add a 140 hoe with the truck that I have now. Eventually I'd like to get to a tandem or triaxle dump, but no hurry on that. All the locals will run dumps for 70 or 75 an hr, why compete to loose money.

Lately the dozer has been the busy item, and thats good cause I like runnin it.

tell me about it, i cant see how these guys are getting up in the am and running each other into the ground , just isnt worth the time and expense to truck for low rates, how much does a 750c weight 33k 34k

 

[CRAFT]

.............but maybe im off, if the machine is loaded up front to get the trailer under gvw limit and the truck has substantial tongue weight then the 1st axle should have more weight on it then the 2nd axle ? which could be over the axle WR

Yes you are WAY OFF.... Yes, if the machine is loaded more to the front of the trailer the weight over the trailer axles is less and it gets transfered to the rear axle(s) of the truck via the draw-bar ........... " BUT " ... the front or lead axle does NOT get heavier ....I guess you don't understand how the suspensions equilizer (balancer) works ...do you ? ...... the ONLY way an axle can get more weight on it over the other, is if both axles are mounted independant of the other like in Dexters tor-flex system, and the trailer frame is not level or when you are backing off a rd and up/dwn hill and one axle is trying to pick up the whole load .....but those are only found up to the 8,000# and less (each) axles ...hmmmm

 

[nedly05]

Yes you are WAY OFF.... Yes, if the machine is loaded more to the front of the trailer the weight over the trailer axles is less and it gets transfered to the rear axle(s) of the truck via the draw-bar ........... " BUT " ... the front or lead axle does NOT get heavier ....I guess you don't understand how the suspensions equilizer (balancer) works ...do you ? ...... the ONLY way an axle can get more weight on it over the other, is if both axles are mounted independant of the other like in Dexters tor-flex system, and the trailer frame is not level or when you are backing off a rd and up/dwn hill and one axle is trying to pick up the whole load .....but those are only found up to the 8,000# and less (each) axles ...hmmmm

I don't know if you intend them to or not, but your posts seem to be very sarcastic. You are clearly a very knowlegable person and have a lot to add to the forum, just relax on the sarcasm :drinkup

One thing to look at with Kaufman is there trailers total GVW is just shortly over 40K, so it doesnt leave you enough for a 20 ton payload, I think they only top out at 17.5 ton payload or so. It was said somewhere on the forum before, but make sure you specify that you want dexter axles with the Kaufman too.