School vs. Job

[Avery]

Hello,
I am new to the forum and couldn't find a thread about going to school vs working. If there is already a thread about this please send me that way.

I am a 3rd year welder in Alberta about to finish my apprenticeship, I've been thinking about pursuing another ticket in heavy equipment tech. I love working in the field and think that the two tickets would compliment each other. My main concern is that I barely have any mechanical knowledge. I've ordered books (diesel engine maintenance, hydraulics and transmissions) but I know that reading vs hands on is two very different things. My local college has a 1 year pre-employment ag and heavy tech course, it covers the basics of maintenance and repair. Should I enroll into the course and then look for work or should I look for work and learn on the job?

Thanks for any insight and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[ianjoub]

Either way is good. I would say since you are in school now, do the schooling before looking for work. You are already there!

The schooling will not likely help you make any more money when you start, but will make you FAR MORE employable.

 

[partsandservice]

Things seem to be different in the south. There is no such thing as a formal apprenticeship. From my perspective only the basic knowledge can come from school or self taught from books. Understanding systems is very important in diagnosis. The real school is the school of hard knocks; that is where the knowledge is gained. I did it for 30 years and never quit learning. IMHO I did a 30 year apprenticeship.

 

[John C.]

As I understand it, Canada is a lot different that the US in that you need licenses to be able to work at different things. That makes me wonder is you have to do the schooling before you can work in the trade?

 

[JD955SC]

Things seem to be different in the south. There is no such thing as a formal apprenticeship. From my perspective only the basic knowledge can come from school or self taught from books. Understanding systems is very important in diagnosis. The real school is the school of hard knocks; that is where the knowledge is gained. I did it for 30 years and never quit learning. IMHO I did a 30 year apprenticeship.

the books are also out of date a lot. There is also a huge difference between the book way and the real life way. They are good for learning some basics but nothing beats getting your hands on stuff. My eyes glazed over when the instructors would put up slide after slide after slide of hydraulic cutaway and diagram drawings but actually seeing the systems in person and working on them helps a lot more.

The US really screwed up when apprenticeships went out of favor but they are returning.

 

[Welder Dave]

Depending on the trade, in Alberta you are supposed to be either a licensed journeyman or indentured apprentice to work in that trade. Welding is one of the trades this applies to and I think it also applies to mechanics. Going to school as an apprentice is not the same as being a full time student. You have to put in so many hours each year in the trade (at your employer) and go for formal schooling every year for a period that is usually 6 to 8 weeks.
Being dual ticketed can be a great asset but can also be a detriment. Do you want to be really good at one trade or mediocre at two? The people that I've seen with dual tickets that are good at both have spent several years honing their skills in their "1st" trade before pursuing a 2nd trade. I think you need to spend 5 years or more honing your skills as a licensed journeyman in one trade before pursuing another trade. Some have done it in less time but I've worked with a few that thought they were the greatest thing ever because they were going for 2 tickets. The problem was they weren't experienced enough in their 1st trade to be trying to get a 2nd trade. One welder in particular liked to boast about how he was going for his steel fabricator ticket so he could have 2 tickets. A good 2nd year apprentice could do a better job welding than him. I think it is easier going for 2 tickets if they are related though. A welder with a fitting ticket could be a great asset and the 2 trades mesh together. A welder/mechanic could be a great asset too but trying to get proficient in both at the same time could result in not being that good at either one or it taking a lot longer to get proficient in either one or both. If you don't have much experience at all in a 2nd trade, I think it would be best to worry about your 1st trade before considering getting a 2nd trade. I'd personally rather be a master at one trade where I'm respected by my coworkers than a jack of all trades where my coworkers wonder how I got a ticket in the 1st place. I always thought it was a compliment when apprentices would ask me for advice. I also got compliments because I would explain things and share my experience. Some people have all the experience but won't share any of it. It's like they feel threatened someone is trying to take their job. If you're really good at your job, it can be nice when you're the one others come to for help.

 

[56wrench]

Well, speaking from experience, what do you want to do most? Be a welder who can repair stuff or be a mechanic who can weld stuff as part of a repair job? I have multiple tickets ( Interprovincial Red Seals) that all overlap and work well together. Most of my jobs have never paid better for multiple tickets but i have always found a job when i wanted one and have always made the short list for job interviews. Apprenticeship is the best way to go if you can get on somewhere as a first year apprentice. You may stand a better chance if you are already a red seal welder because most repair shops need a welder periodically

 

[Welder Dave]

I think it's good to know what you're capable of doing and knowing when you're not capable on a specific job. I think customers and employers both benefit. As an example I've seen mechanics attempt to weld something, so a job could get out the door. It doesn't make them a hero if they made a mess that someone more experienced has to fix. However if the shop had a mechanic that was also a qualified welder, that employee could be a hero at times when a weld repair is required that wasn't immediately noticeable or hidden where it couldn't be seen. There is nothing wrong with saying you don't have the required skill to do a job. You should be respected when stating you don't have the required skill for a specific job. There is nobody who is qualified to do every job even in the trade they are licensed in. Trades are a life long learning experience and you never stop learning new things.

 

[MarshallPowerGen]

Go for the extra year of school. It should cover the basics so you won't be walking in blind and needing to find an employer willing to take the extra time (and loss) to train you from scratch on the job.

 

[suladas]

If you were doing repairs out in the field it could be handy to have both. But I would speak to a lot of older HD mechanics and I bet the vast majority would tell you when you are 40-50 the last thing you want to be doing is physical work on a truck everyday. My buddy is a shop foreman and they have a hell of a time trying to keep apprentices, they see what the older guys are like after doing it for 20-30 years and want no part of it. If you do it you got to get good at something specific like wiring, or move up. At 30 he became a foreman and very rarely wrenches on anything anymore and has it very good.

 

[chidog]

In my opinion, if your not a mechanical sort, do something your interested in. I have worked in a few trades where some of the folks could do the job somewhat, probably because they needed a job and it was there and good pay or had some schooling of some sort so then they think they are gods gift to that trade I've known many young ones like that. If its not in your DNA, that is you weren't into it at say age 4 (and not because mom or dad steered you there) then it may not be for you.

 

[Welder Dave]

I don't know how many times I've ran into guys saying they're going to go pipelining and make a killing... because they know someone else who has done it. It's heavy hard work, long hours, working in mud and various other conditions, very physically demanding, very high paced and has to be perfect. More than a couple repairs you're likely to get kicked off the job. It's not a job anybody that can burn a rod can do. These people are just thinking about the money but not realizing the whole scope of the job.

 

[terex herder]

Pipeline welding doesn't pay the big money because its so hard to do. Pipeline welding pays the big bucks to keep you on the job in the midst of a really crappy life style.

 

[Welder Dave]

I think it's a combination of things but most do it for the money. It certainly takes a lot of skill to continuously produce 100% x-ray quality welds in sometimes adverse conditions. I know 1 guy who's a motorcycle mechanic but just got his journeyman welding ticket. He thinks he knows a lot about welding but really doesn't. He asked me a couple years ago about hardfacing as in 7018 is 70,000 psi tensile strength, etc., what tensile is hardfacing and does it have numbers like normal rods do. I was dumbfounded but he was totally serious. He really likes to embellish how good he is at things. He did all his welding at his friends shop. The friend made the money to start his shop doing pipeline so this guy figured he'd just go pipelining for a couple years and he'd be set. It doesn't work that way. First you have to learn how to weld pipe. It's almost a seperate specialized trade in itself. Then in order to get on the big money jobs you have to be established and have a reputation where the pipeline contractors want you on the job. You don't just get your pressure ticket and get the big money pipeline jobs. It takes several years to get there if you're good. He got a job teaching apprentice M/C mechanics because most didn't want to move to the small town where you have to go for training. It's not taught in the major cities. It was a way to give the small town college more students. Anyway they also do welding apprentice training. Apparently because it's a little difficult to get good instructors they told him he may also be teaching welding. I thought there's no way that's going to happen. He claims he got screwed around so left that job. He went back to M/C mechanics but the shop got bought out by a larger shop. Talking with someone else in the industry, the shop that bought the smaller shop hired all the mechanics from the small shop except him. I think he's mostly doing M/C repairs out of his garage now. He can do some really good work but isn't nearly as good as he let's on.

 

[Old Doug]

In my opinion, if your not a mechanical sort, do something your interested in. I have worked in a few trades where some of the folks could do the job somewhat, probably because they needed a job and it was there and good pay or had some schooling of some sort so then they think they are gods gift to that trade I've known many young ones like that. If its not in your DNA, that is you weren't into it at say age 4 (and not because mom or dad steered you there) then it may not be for you.

Nothing against Avery but could he be made into a mechanic? If he has what it takes to be a good welder i would stick to that.

 

[Old Doug]

I about did the opposite of what Avery is thinking about. I got to go to votec auto mechanics my last 2 years of high school. Then i want to go back after high school and take welding. It would have been a deal for me to do because it was 24 miles away and we were poor. I didnt have a good vehicle to drive . I told my mechanics teacher that i wanted to take welding he said i wouldnt have a problem makeing a living as a mechanic. I read every book i could get on welding and did alot at home and i took some night classes . I have worked about half my life as a mechanic and half as a welder. Welders make less money but it also is a lot easyer work .Anyone can be trained to weld and that hurts the pay scale but not every one that can weld is a welder.

 

[Welder Dave]

I wouldn't say anyone can be trained to be welder (or mechanic) and it certainly isn't easier work than a mechanic. The best welders can make as much or more as the best mechanics. You have to compare apples to apples. There are easier and harder jobs in all trades. There's a guy on Welding Web that repairs boiler tubes using Tig. Extremely cramped conditions and everything has to be perfect as in 100% X-ray with no margin for error, none! Jobs like this you need to be ambidextrous and often have to feed the filler metal through the pipe to the other side and/or use mirrors to see what your doing. On top of that you have to do it while contorting your body looking through a 2 1/4" x 4" dark lens.
I don't know what welding you've done but a lot of the highest skilled welders would take real exception to your saying welding is easier than mechanics. The same as highly skilled mechanics would take real exception to someone saying it is easier than welding. It's all relative to the particular job that is being done. I will say that welding is one of the most tested trades. X-Rays are generally kept for 7 years in case there is an issue with a weld long after it was done. I don't think I've ever read something so blatantly wrong before.

 

[Old Doug]

I wouldn't say anyone can be trained to be welder (or mechanic) and it certainly isn't easier work than a mechanic. The best welders can make as much or more as the best mechanics. You have to compare apples to apples. There are easier and harder jobs in all trades. There's a guy on Welding Web that repairs boiler tubes using Tig. Extremely cramped conditions and everything has to be perfect as in 100% X-ray with no margin for error, none! Jobs like this you need to be ambidextrous and often have to feed the filler metal through the pipe to the other side and/or use mirrors to see what your doing. On top of that you have to do it while contorting your body looking through a 2 1/4" x 4" dark lens.
I don't know what welding you've done but a lot of the highest skilled welders would take real exception to your saying welding is easier than mechanics. The same as highly skilled mechanics would take real exception to someone saying it is easier than welding. It's all relative to the particular job that is being done. I will say that welding is one of the most tested trades. X-Rays are generally kept for 7 years in case there is an issue with a weld long after it was done. I don't think I've ever read something so blatantly wrong before.

I am not saying this to try to get the last word in . Welding has changed alot at one time every one that welded for a living was highly skilled . Now someone can be trained in a matter of hours to weld a part together for assmblyline work i know this because i trained several . The thing that i believe makes welding alot easyer is if you do it right to the best of your ability you can go home and not ever think about what you did that day. With mechanic work you can do every thing right and go home wondering if and when what you did that day will fell. Every time you grab a wrench you will be working on something you can hardly get to every thing that you figured out how to fix yesterday will be replaced with something you know nothing about tomorrow. Every thing a mechanic does takes different tools that he dosent always have. There are welding jobs that are tuff hard to get to stuff but that is not a every day thing for every one who welds. I had never take any weld test to be certified tell about 10 years ago. I never thought i was the best welder but i know i wasnt the worst i learned alot from those test . I have never failed a test but a test is a test if you know how to take it.
I am not cutting down any one that is a mechanic or a welder . I have welded on building new RR cars,built about every kind of trailer there is, some pipeline work owned several portables that i did custom work and repair with,work in a general repair welding shop and spent 4 years as a welder in a Research and Development lab. I havent done every thing there is being a welder but i have done some the only part that i disliked was were you had to make a long uninterrupted weld. To be someone that is a true Welder it takes several year in the trade. For me welding was alot easyer than mechanic work.

 

[Welder Dave]

There are easier and harder jobs in any trade. Making a blanket statement one trade is easier than another one is wrong. Also some people will pick up a trade easier than others. Maybe for you the welding was easier but I don't know the degree of difficulty in what you welded. Standing on your head Tig welding with a mirror because there's no room to get behind a pipe is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. Some welders do stuff like this on a regular basis. The guys that are good at it are at the top of the list to get hired for the next plant shut down. I'm in Alberta where there is a lot of oil and gas related work that requires highly skilled tradesmen in several trades. Not everyone can do it.

 

[Sberry]

In any of the trades a welder can simply do stuff the non welder cant. I am a farmer/career welder, it has carried me along. Allows me to do some contracting.