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Right To Repair EO

Discussion in 'General Industry Questions' started by wlhequipment, Jan 14, 2022.

  1. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    They were always here it's just that Papé had the construction side and Valley had the ag side. Now I guess it's Papé or nothing.

    When I worked in Central Oregon, they had the Cat dealership there. Seemed strange to see them with Deere all over everything nowadays.
     
    DMiller likes this.
  2. mg2361

    mg2361 Senior Member

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    I don't know if Deere AG dealers offer a customer version. EPC Catalogs offers an AG version though.

    In the end I don't see the big deal in allowing any customer, contractor or farmer, access to diagnostic software. No different than the auto business with the tools available to work on them. However, I do agree with the manufacturers on not allowing software reprogramming.
     
  3. JD955SC

    JD955SC Senior Member

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    One of the issues is the construction and ag brands aren’t using common communication protocols. Auto industry has OBD-II, and has since 1996. Volume of cars (huge) plus a universal protocol means there is a viable aftermarket to make cheap tools and software that works…mostly…with some exceptions needing different brands of scanners or factory tools.

    Closest thing the diesel world has is J1939 which isn’t used for everything plus manufacturers are introducing advanced stuff like Ethernet and so on. And nobody uses a universal connector design…Cat alone has at least two different connectors in service (three if you count the connector for the clicker box)

    some of it is undoubtably manufacturers being butts about it just cause, some of it is definitely emissions concerns, which the fed .gov just LOVES to screw everybody they can on.

    As we all know you can buy third party diesel software like Texa that does some of what you need but the current best solution is manufacture software and adapters which if you had to buy it for the cars it would cost a pretty penny as well.

    the only thing right to repair would mean is you get a chance to buy the manuals and software and connector to repair your machine from the manufacturer, most likely through the dealer. And it can be a hobbled version of the software that doesn’t do the updates or changing settings it can be a glorified code reader. Those expecting to get the software for free, which many seem to do, are going to be disappointed.
     
  4. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    I'll use an example from recently. Propane fueled engine, electronically controlled. Engine runs a random time then shuts down for no reason. Show up and can easily plug laptop into ECM with CANBUS device. Can see fault code list, fault is for TPS different (two poteniometers running opposed on the throttle) more than 20%. Can read TPS numbers from a screen easily and see that they are approaching 20% diff so we know they are not lying. Order part, replace, easy peasy. Total cost of diagnostics equipment, less than a grand. Use my own laptop. It does not have to be so hard except "they" want to make it hard.
     
  5. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    You can get the troubleshooting stuff from the monitor panel on all the construction and logging machines that I have looked at that were less then five years old. Can you do that on the ag machines? I have yet to see a time that I couldn't fix a machine when I was able to get information that was provided by the codes and I had some type of translator to tell me what the codes meant. Current production machines even tell you what the codes are. Can that be done on ag machines?
     
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  6. 673moto

    673moto Well-Known Member

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    When did that happen?.. been a minute since I’ve needed Deere parts...
    What about the Deere dealer in yuba city?
     
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  7. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    We got a letter in the mail around the end of the year. Yuba City was/is my store too. Parts guy named Guneet Singh, very helpful.
     
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  8. dieseldog5.9

    dieseldog5.9 Senior Member

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    Looks like United Equipment has taken over all the Deere Agricultural and Construction Dealerships in New England.
     
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  9. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    Fault codes on the display are better than nothing. But everything is so expensive. So you would like to be able to see exactly what is happening. If it says rail pressure low, then you would like to see when the rail pressure is low. Does it stay low all the time or dip down? Is it the pressure control valve or the sender or the pump? Or the ECM? What duty cycle is the PCV running at? Are there historic fault codes or other things coming close to setting a code?

    Not to mention the things that absolutely must be done with a laptop such as certain types of forced regen, or replacing coded parts such as injectors.

    All this info is available but it should not cost $1000 for a dongle with 3 connectors and 5 chips that you could buy on ebay, and $7000 for a laptop with software that will run it, and have to get mother Deere's permission and shell out $$$ to keep using it every year.

    That is another thing, if Farmer Bob wants to be prepared and gets the software and hardware set up, for his tractor, and it works on year 0, he should be able to continue using it to work on that same tractor for the life of the tractor. He doesn't need the latest and greatest software updates, he just needs it to keep working the way it did when it was new, the same as if he bought special tool DZ10029039432 for seal replacement, he does not need to renew a subscription on that tool if another seal goes out 5 years from now.
     
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  10. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    I'm just wondering what Farmer Bob has access to in the first place. Does he get a diagnostics screen at all?
     
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  11. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

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    There should be a sticky on the main page. A place where folks share the secret handshake that allows you into the service screens. It sounds simple, but if you don't know what button to push while you stand on your head rubbing your belly, you don't have access to service menus. Now John C has gone to the next level with YouTube videos explaining how to get the most out of Komatsu instrument panels. We kinda need something like that across the board for all makes.
     
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  12. Truck Shop

    Truck Shop Senior Member

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    Any on road aftermarket is nothing more than code reader, the only things that can be reprogramed
    is top speed and cruise, idle time, but on freightliner you can set in the cab with nothing more than a index finger
    and bring up the trouble codes. I haven't upgraded any because of that.
     
    DMiller likes this.
  13. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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    McCoy Equipment bought out ERB Eq. Deere Construction side here, Sydenstricker and Nobbe two of MO Largest dealers have partnered where who knows where that will end up, control about 3/4 of MO Deere AG side.
     
  14. terex herder

    terex herder Senior Member

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    deere has told all of their dealership owners they are either a buyer or a seller, mother deere doesn't care which. deere doesn't want customers to be able to shop between stores. You can't buy deere equipment from anyone other than the dealer that owns your territory, or deere withholds all the marketing money on that unit. If you are a small customer and get crosswise with your area dealer, you are just SOL. If you are a large customer, deere will either broker a truce, or allow you to use another dealer.
     
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  15. terex herder

    terex herder Senior Member

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  16. hvy 1ton

    hvy 1ton Senior Member

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    I don't know who Heritage Tractor bought out, but they've got a big chunk of MO south of I70 now. I remember when it was just one store in Baldwin and that was 20 years ago. upload_2022-1-15_21-16-58.png
     
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  17. heymccall

    heymccall Senior Member

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    I really, really liked my older Deeres. And Doyle Equipment. I've got 25k hr 544GTC machines.
    TC54H
    544J
    The H and J all had teething pains, but I could never get the H right. It went away.
    Still have the Js. But, Murphy took Doyle, and they charge 15-18% over list price for all parts.
    So, giving Deere another chance, we incorporated in another territory and got a 544K from another network. Aside from the FIVE months, under warranty, where it COULDN'T be fixed, it's been a "decent" machine.

    In other words, screw Deere.

    And I'm not even talking about the steering issues, brake issues, harness issues, injection pump, egr issues, paint and rust issues...My Komatsu and Cat loaders have been far more reliable and those dealers don't charge me 18% over list price.
     
  18. Questionable wizard

    Questionable wizard Well-Known Member

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    Deere's philosophy, make the shareholders money. Control the customers markets so they can't go anywhere else.
    Also according to Deere's sales agreement when you purchase equipment, you are buying the rights to use the software in the controllers, Deere still maintains ownership of the software. Therefore, your cannot legally modify the software. Deere's lawyers are very well paid. Their user agreements are very far reaching.
    I know several corporate Deere employees. They sign agreements when hiring on, that any ideas they come up with while employed(product changes, updates, better management, how to manage customers, etc.), are Deere's property. Deere owns their souls!
     
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  19. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

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    Every year, we see this come up. California farmers were the first ones, I believe. Now, I think it's all farmers collectively and some guys in the dirt side. It's always the same name, Deere. I don't think this is gonna go any further than it has in the past. They have the EPA on their side. That's it, that is the end of the story. For decades we've been getting away with mods to cars and trucks with the help of SEMA. Last year the EPA pushed hard to rescind that right. But we are limited to non-highway use. Until you can "roll yer own " software package with EPA approval, you will continue to 'borrow' software from the mfr .
     
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  20. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    We're not asking to modify anything over here.

    All we want is to be able to see sensor values when troubleshooting a problem. And program simple values such as reset DPF or update injector codes when changed.

    Without paying a grand for a box with 5 blinky lights and 3 simple connectors. And groveling to the increasingly consolidated dealer network to allow us to purchase software for several grand more that requires subscriptions. For the same equipment we worked on before, that is getting older and older.