Replaced injector pump, need help timing...Case 530c/k

[skroll]

What years are the "zero advance kit" appropriate?

Phil, the injection timing for all the Case diesels up to and including the early 580 C's was 8 btdc. The 207 when first introduced had starting issues and we updated many of the injection pumps to a 0 degree timing kit at start to get the fuel into the cylinder while the chamber heat was at its hottest, This was accomplished by changing the pistons on the bottom of the pump housing where the advance piston is located, This kit with the updated parts was sent to us dealers by Case Corp. If the injection point is not 8 BTDC then I have mistimed literally hundreds in my career with Case. I can see useing a dial indicator to verify true TDC if one suspects the pointer to be inaccurate but once it is determined that is ok, the point of injection should be 8 BTDC. Once running the transfer pump pressure pushes the advance piston and advances to the running timing. Mel.

Just pulled the injection pump off a 1976 580C. Are rebuilding it, pilot bushing bad, leaking diesel into the engine oil. Timing was very strange, wasn't set at 8, r or even zero for that matter. Si someone either just plain set it wrong, or is one tooth off on the drive gear. Know this is old post, but am getting ready to order parts and fix. Engine serial number 2818835. Not a "pipe plug" for a port opening, but a stamped steel cover. Thin flywheel, with 8, 4 & DC on the flywheel. And you just try and get a screwdriver in there to turn the motor, ha!
Know it is an old posting, but new problem for us.

skk

 

[thepumpguysc]

scroll.. if you lined up the lines in the window on the side cover on the pump before you pulled it..and it was running fine.. I wouldn't worry about it..
Unless you wanna pull the front end off and line everything up..
8* is the magic #.. DC is "dead center" as in.. TDC.. "top dead center"..
The P# for the kit is 24371 and 16320 for the pilot tube..
If you want, send me a PM and i'll walk you thru it.. TPG

 

[skroll]

Brother-in-law went through diesel trade school 35 years ago and trained on these pumps, what bothers me is we did bring the engine up to the 8 BTDC and the timing lines on the pump were both visible but considerably apart. Rotating the engine to 4 degrees, still did not bring the lines together, closer, but no horse shoe. Rotating up to TDC still had about an 1/8" distances separating the pump convergence (timing) lines. I suspect we would have to have gone to 4 or 8 degrees After TDC to make "static" lines match."

The engine started, rough, but got better as it warmed up. High idle was fine with acceptable engine power. But the diesel fuel in the oil pan made us pull off the pump, and discover the timing issue. Also noticed that the valves cannot be adjusted correctly on top of everything else, so will have to redo them as well.

Brother-in-law just thinks they had the pump rotated too far, but I'm not convinced there is enough rotation in the pump to flange mounting studs to put things correct. Plus the pump looked pretty vertical and correct. so I'm thinking when they overhauled the motor (which it does look like they did in the not so distant past) they indexed the pump drive gear off by one tooth, so just set the pump in and lined it up where they though it ran good and left it that way?

Pump mounting studs looked like they were in the center of the slots. Thoughts?

SKK

 

[thepumpguysc]

If the pump wont line up and the valves cant be adjusted correctly.. something is definatly wrong.. and worth a look under the front cover..
Smartest thing to do is rotate the engine to the TDC mark FIRST.. then pull the cover and see where thing line up..
Good luck.
BTW> they put those slots in the pump housing for a reason.. shouldda tried to rotate the pump before removal..
Another thing to check is the pump drive shaft key.. once you have the front cover off.. remove the nut on the pump drive gear and shine a lite down it.. you should be able to see a key in the slot..

 

[skroll]

Took the pump apart this afternoon. Return line fitting "jury rigged" with a piece of pipe and double female connector to the original 90 degree fitting with the jam nut, another interesting thing, pipe threads with jam nut, and no sealing washer according to Case Online Parts. Reason for the modification that leaked badly was stripped threads in the housing cover, and little "black mouse turds." So they had the return line plugging problem and this was their fix. Need a new cover or epoxy. Have to decide if we should go ahead and replace the check-valve fitting. Some seem to run without, but Roosa had it in their for a reason. Thoughts?

Ah yes the infamous broken elastacast "flex ring," non existent, gone, except one small piece under one of the mounting rivets. Lots of little hard black pieces in various places in pump housing. So they never took apart and cleaned. The center of the plate that this weight assembly rubbed against is abused, but B-I-L sez non functional and not hurting anything to leave. B-I-L does not want to spend the money for the EDI update; we own the backhoe jointly. Rest of pump looks good, except the pilot tube which is grooved badly and we are assuming the source of the increasing oil level in the oil pan. The umbrella seals looked really good however.

The timing ball screw, Bristol of course, was a real bear to get out and worried us. Trust me I rapped on it multiple times and it still took a LOT of force to break free. We were worried about damage to the pump housing in trying to loosen it. Took an impact tool to finally free it, and hard taps.

I am concerned about this zero timing kit and static timing of the unit, based on what we saw on the timing marks when we disassembled things. One don't know how you know it the kit is installed or not. If it is, how do you initially time the thing, as it I understand it it is already retarding timing 8 degrees, as it sits before running. If there is no factory additional timing at low idle, then will just adjust using window marks with the engine running. Hopefully will be correct then. If not an early 207, or does not have the kit, then timing drive gear must be off or something not right. I don't know how many teeth are on the drive gear to know what one tooth would translate to in timing terms. Ran good at high idle, not so good at low. Theoretically if I understand the kit, you would set the initial static timing to 0 degrees, raster-lines would not line up, but when the engine starts it will advance to the 8 degree running figure, and be in "raster?"

Heading up to the "local" pump shop tomorrow or Tuesday to get parts and discuss with whom ever I can find there with gray, I'm sorry silver hair like mine. 70 mile trip - one way, but they have the mandril to press out and replace the pilot bushing properly. B-I-L back in his IC mechanic days never replaced the bushings, just ordered a new housing from parts counter. Has been 20 to 30 years since he rebuilt one of these, so we are going slow and triple checking everything g.

SKK

 

[thepumpguysc]

The rough running will more than likely be on account of the broken flex ring.. I wouldn't give the advance a second thought..
The top cover.. the fuel shop will have 100's of "spares" in there salvage area.. JUST ASK for a used 1.. like from a core pump.
I charge 1/2 price for used parts.. of free.. depending on my mood at the moment..
Replace the return connector..
Weight retainer.. IF the pins aren't damaged reuse it.. if they show flat marks where its been smashing against the hub..don't..
If the rivets[pins] are damaged and they shear off.. all hell will break loose inside the pump.. and if the BIL doesn't like the cost of an EID, he's not going to like the cost of a Head & Rotor..
You'll hate yourself or BIL for not getting the EID..and having to do this again in afew years.. P# 29111 about 70.00 + tax.. and MAKE SURE to have them put the timing mark on it..
The way I see it.. 70.00 for EID, 32.00 for kit, 20.00 for return connector, 20.00 for pilot tube and 12.00 for epoxy, a used top cover and you got your self a pump ..
Good luck.. TPG

 

[skroll]

Thx, will present the argument!. skk

 

[skroll]

Spent a couple of hours at the "Pump Shop" yesterday, 200 mi round trip. Quite the learning experience. As luck would have it, the tech had the same general unit in his vise and was reassembling, so got to watch and ask numerous questions.

We took apart the timing pistons and the pump does have the "zero advance" update kit. We also found the TSB from Stanadyne on the computer and he printed out for me. Technically the pump should have been relabeled to indicate the change, eh. I also got the Stanadyne printout on the pump itself.

Long story short, Mel got back to me, and you do alter the static timing back to TDC on the unit if it has the kit, and at start-up, upon pump pressurization, timing is pushed to the specked 8 BTDC then. Pump itself, according to Stanadyne, has an additional 4 degrees more advance built into it, +- 1 degree. So if whomever worked on the unit previously did things right, we should be good to go with a total advance at pump of 12 to 13, or 24 to 26 degrees engine. Things were easier back in the day when I was racing 327 and 350 gas engines - higher compression and bigger carb, go faster.

Thx for all the help and replies.

SKK

 

[thepumpguysc]

Your right, the pump tag should have been stamped for the "update'..
Hope it all goes according to plan.. good luck..

 

[rutwad]

This thread was from my original attempt a while back. I have updated my attempts and added pictures. Any additional help is appreciated. I know understand it, but cannot get everything lined up.

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.co...Pump-is-off-Won-t-line-up&p=523982#post523982