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Pulling 200 track hoe on tag trailer

Discussion in 'Equipment Moving Questions' started by suladas, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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    Most likely rolled a packing in the first stage. Got many hours on it?
     
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  2. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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    As far as scooting the front tires in a turn, consider that a warning shot across the bow. You probably NEED to get into a longer WB SA with more nose weight, get into a full tractor trailer, get a generally heavier tandem or have a real bad day coming. I used to ignore or discount those little warnings, I WON'T anymore as been bit a few too many times by Fate.
     
  3. Willie B

    Willie B Senior Member

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    Nothing in VT is ever level. I'd bet that contributes to these things being uncommon. The instability sort of announces itself.
     
  4. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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    The unit I pull has a bubble gauge on the nose and one on the truck dash, not high tech but was told 5 degrees off level and the load bridges, you're toast if send it up too far too fast.
     
  5. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    Someone has to help me out here, I'm missing something, a 20 ton hoe on a tandem tag trailer behind a single axle truck......................in the United States of America..................just where can anyone scale that legally with any bridge law anywhere. Your arguing over whether or not it can be done, maybe argue if its even legal to do, because its not in my state, not even close to being legal. To haul that hoe in my state, I'd need a triple axle tag and tandem truck at the least, due to the short wheelbase, I'd have to do some reading, but it might even need a tag axle on the tandem truck along with the tri axle trailer with the short wheelbase to be legal.

    Does your state allow you 20k per axle with an oversized permit even if the length between axle groups is short, like on a tag and dump truck scenario??
     
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  6. AzIron

    AzIron Senior Member

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    It can be done and bridge it out like you say tho your maxed on weight but you would not do it with a standard day cab single used for local deliveries it's about 3 foot to short at least
     
  7. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    A 200 sized hoe weights about 45,000 lbs,, add on the truck and trailer weight and tell me how it could ever be done on four axles and then get that weight on those axles with a tag and pintle hitch. I'm really curious as to how this is done. I have to have read it wrong and the hoe weights 20,000 lbs total not a 200 sized machine.
     
  8. AzIron

    AzIron Senior Member

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    I meant in reference to a 35 ton triple axle tag couldn't be done on a 20 ton no matter what truck you pulled it with
     
  9. Wes J

    Wes J Senior Member

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    You'd be right on the edge of legality. Figure 25,000 for a single axle dump and 20 ton tag. 34,000 on the trailer tandems, 20,000 on the drive axle, 12,000 on the steer. That's 66,000 gross, 41,000 payload. So, if the machine is really 20 tons and not a feather more, you could do it. You'd have to get it positioned just right.

    It would have to be really flat and the truck would want more power than any single axle dump I ever drove.
     
  10. suladas

    suladas Senior Member

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    I'm not sure where anyone got a tandem tag from. It is a triple axle tag, that can carry 24,000kg on the trailer axles legally.

    I scaled it and what I got was 26,000kg on the trailer, and 4,000kg on the truck. Loading the hoe a bit further forward to put more weight on the truck to make the trailer axles legal. I was actually quite surprised how much weight the trailer takes off the front end of the truck, cannot feel it and the unit pulls very smooth though.

    I've decided to buy a daycab tractor and put a box on it and go with the tandem dump route. I can get a pretty nice truck rigged up for about 40k vs a old worn out tandem dump for that price. The tandem will come in handy, and I will feel more comfortable pulling it, as the trailer is actually weighting about 30,000kg depending what I have for attachments and mud on the machine.
     
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  11. Theweldor

    Theweldor Senior Member

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    Just out of curiosity. There are a couple of companies around here that must have 40 or 50 of those frameless dumps. I was always under the impression they were more stable than the framed ones. I personally have never hauled either. I just fix'em after they roll them over. Me being the village idiot and all.
     
  12. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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    Frame style dump relies on the stability of that frame for the pivot point and mast support, a frameless rises taking the forward axle with it teetering on the rear most suspension and the flimsy sub frame at center pivot with the mast being more of a support than a lifting device, ALL suspension air rides are dumped prior to lifting so are setting on the stop blocks. As a frameless goes up the rear wheels are locked, the cab parking brake MUST be released so the cab can travel rearward as the mechanism bends in the middle as the lift occurs, anything happens to the truck or the trailer and over they go.
     
  13. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    Full frame end dumps are the most stable of any of them, next is quarter frames for stability and least stable are frameless units when dumping. What gets most end dumps is when some material hangs up on one side of the box when dumping and the frameless units can't handle those stress's and over they go, the full frame units can usually handle those types of stress's and are somewhat harder to lay over, not that it can't be done, but will take some more effort on the drivers part to cause full frames to lay over. Also the longer the trailer, the easier they lay over.
     
  14. Theweldor

    Theweldor Senior Member

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    I have straightened and repaired several framed trailers over the years but never a frameless. Maybe they just haul them to the junkyard when they go over. Was just always under the impression they were more stable.
     
  15. suladas

    suladas Senior Member

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    One difference is where the different trailers are used for. The framed tend to be more off road hauling clay, concrete, etc anything and dumping in uneven ground. Where the frameless tend to stick to asphalt hauling sand, gravel, etc where it would be virtually impossible to make it go over. I've only pulled a framed 29', but it was very stable never any problems dumping in sketchy places. But it's a different beast then a tandem and you need to dump accordingly.
     
  16. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    Of the frameless trailers that I've seen that went over, they are pretty well totaled. The cylinder was beyond repair since the truck stayed upright and only the trailers went over, the support frames were had, one side of the trailer was gone and needed a complete replacement and the whole thing twisted like a pretzel.

    There was a fad years back, maybe 25 years ago now, where those long frameless trailers were bought to haul corn gluten, distiller grain, cotton seed and a host of other things that never should have been loaded on any frameless trailer to begin with, most trailers never made it very many loads before going over, then when the insurance company called whoever had loaded the trailer, trying to figure out an excuse to avoid paying the claim, most business's got so tired of dealing with them, since they didn't flop over on their property, only loaded on their property. Most all of those business's banned dumps completely, they wouldn't let any on their property, either to load or unload, frameless end dumps went by the wayside fast around here. Some of the local quarries won't load them either, only framed end dumps, so the incidence of frameless going over in my area is pretty slim, mainly due to not many in the area to begin with.

    About that same time, custom silage harvesters were buying frameless end dumps as well, not sure why, but they thought they were cheap to haul silage with, if I recall in one day, one harvester lost every frameless end dump he had, his guys flopped ever one, to this day, he's banned by his insurance company from owning, loading into, or pulling any end dump trailer period, not even full framed trailers, as I recall, not one trailer was worth fixing, all had the axles assembly cut out and the trailers were just scrapped out. If you ask the guy today, about a frameless end dump, he'll get pretty quiet and not say much, I think its still a pretty sore subject even after all those years. I'd have to ask again, but if I recall, when one went over, it landed on a new packing tractor and totaled that too, as they say, someone's learning curve went way up that day. That was about the time they came out with live bottom silage trailers pulled by semi's and live bottom boxes mounted on trucks, or when both became really popular in my area anyhow.

    So I'm not sure if that answers your question of not fixing a frameless trailer or not, but I do know of many that won't pull one, even to this day no matter what's in it, I'm told when your behind the wheel and one goes over, its something you won't forget, but then again, I know of a few that have flopped over side dumps, taking the truck with it, it was a picture moment seeing the driver crawl out the passengers widow as the whole rig laid on its side, can't say its on my bucket list of things to do personally, not sure it was on theirs either, but as they say, sh*t happens.
     
  17. colson04

    colson04 Senior Member

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    We had one of those frameless delivery trucks go over on our farm. He was dumping a load of gluten and 1/4 or more of the load stayed in the top of the trailer when he got it all the way up. Over she went, tractor and all. The noise scared the cows which caused them to rush to the far end of the barn. One cow slipped and went down and got trampled to death. We banned frameless dumps on our farm after that one. As far as the truck and trailer, the truck drove away after being righted. The trailer was loaded up and hauled away to a salvage yard.

    That said, we've also tipped over our own forage dump trucks under similar circumstances. We tip them right side up, replace a mirror or two, check the fluids and go back to trucking.
     
  18. AzIron

    AzIron Senior Member

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    how things are different in different areas around here everyone has frameless over framed there lighter. i have pulled one a fair bit for hauling dirt sand or gravel demoed concrete and manure. i cant say that i hear of them going over all that often and most of the time its because they were dumping on questionable ground. i know of three framless that went over all three of them had the arms and the rams replaced and went back to work had some dents but nothing terrible.
     
  19. Mother Deuce

    Mother Deuce Senior Member

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    They are very handy trailers... especially if your stuck and it is level enough to get the trailer up. I am your neighbor here in New England and contractor's here do not deviate from what they have done before. They cling to triaxles like they were tablets Moses hauled down the mountain. There are no side dumps here. Most people think that a thumb is a piece welded permanently to the boom versus a hydraulic multiplier thumb. A good running progressive west coast company could come in here and make a fortune with gear they already own that is more progressive then most (not all) New England companies. If you have a operation that will tolerate a frameless trailer (with a wide A frame from the fifth wheel to a support pivot that is as wide as the trailer rail, similar to the one in image. The only thing you can't do with a frameless is put a twist in the frame to slide a foul load, drop the hoist and pull out of the twist and then dump the rest of the load out. with a frameless you have to tailgate a pile to stand the the low side of the back axle on. Then slide the load put the hoist down pull off the pile and dump her again. All this fun can usually be avoid by a hand who can get it down the middle of the trailer) why tote around the frame. However you will find me with a Raven or a Steco of another frame type of similar design for demo. Lots of cool stuff around Engcom and Steel Wrist rotators, On machine grade control, and look up a 8CMR Mecalac on You Tube. Very cool iron out there being developed by all the manufacturers.
     
  20. Mother Deuce

    Mother Deuce Senior Member

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    This was done with a 35 ton Fruhauf (SP) lengthened 3 feet to get the inner bridge to work. I don't remember the weights exactly the trailer was like 43 the drivers were 41 ish and the front was light! It was a workable legal permit combination and hauled that 52000 pound 977 around for quite awhile as well as several excavators incident free. Took a driver 977 tiltbed.jpg and an effort was made not to move it marginal weather.