On Road Diesel In Off Road Equipment

[Coaldust]

Been a lot of brainstorming regarding what to do with all that 100LL. Being expired, can’t really use it in a plane at this point. Sure, probably work great for a private guy and his PA-12. But, the logistics get in the way. So it sits.

 

[Pony]

Off topic, but how big a plane does it take to use that much fuel per hour?

 

[Nige]

Now begs the question:
What additive has been proven to provide current diesel with past lubricity that older machinery was designed to run on?

No idea exactly what the additive is (maybe Coaldust knows?), but all diesel fuel must meet a lubricity standard. The most common one I've come across is ASTM D6079 which in simple terms uses a reciprocating rig with the fuel as a lubricant and measures the size of the wear scar that is generated.

 

[skyking1]

Off topic, but how big a plane does it take to use that much fuel per hour?

Something like this at 65% to 70% power. I ran it much leaner at 48% and 17 GPH, but DW has limited bladder capacity so the hurry up levers are usually moved forward for her.

That was on the last big trip we took in 07. This was the price in northwestern Wyoming at the time.

 

[skyking1]

Been a lot of brainstorming regarding what to do with all that 100LL. Being expired, can’t really use it in a plane at this point. Sure, probably work great for a private guy and his PA-12. But, the logistics get in the way. So it sits.

Yes the logistics would be troublesome Expired 100LL would not trouble me if it could get analyzed properly.

 

[JCinNC]

Now begs the question:
What additive has been proven to provide current diesel with past lubricity that older machinery was designed to run on?

Respectfully, from what I gather so far, is that nobody knows.

I'll dig more and if I can find anything definite, I'll share it. Thanks.

 

[Bluox]

Respectfully, from what I gather so far, is that nobody knows.

I'll dig more and if I can find anything definite, I'll share it. Thanks.

If you are talking snake oil additives the answer is 0 the diesel coming out of the pumps has all the lubricity it needs.
Bob

 

[Bluox]

that sucks. Around here all the cardlock stations have it. Ironically, their prices are high enough that regular stations in a price battle will sell taxed fuel for almost the same price.

In Washington you pay about 10% sales tax on red diesel.
Bob

 

[JCinNC]

If you are talking snake oil additives the answer is 0 the diesel coming out of the pumps has all the lubricity it needs.
Bob

Thanks. Just to make sure I understand, you are saying there is no difference between "old" diesel and "new" diesel in regards to possible effects on older equipment. Is that correct?
Example: A piece of equipment built in 1990 running nothing but diesel from 1990 will experience the same performance and wear at 10,000 hours as if it were running nothing but diesel from 2021 for 10,000 hours.
x=y.
Correct?

 

[Coaldust]

Yes and no. Today’s gear is made to run on today’s fuel. (Except CP4 pumps, and they fail sitting on the shelf). Yesterday’s fuel lubricated pumps like the classic DB2 & Cat sleeve metering pumps see benefits from using a lubricity additive. That’s why some major distributors use a lubricity additive. It’s a value-added customer benefit and marketing tool.

 

[Coaldust]

Nige,

I’ll take a look. I was interested myself regarding what was actually in the secret sauce. I took a picture of the label on the drums of additive we inject into the bulk tanks after the barge off loads and pulled up the SDS on it. It comes from Afton Chemical. BTW, almost all the lubricity additive comes from Afton. No matter what brand/blender you purchase from.

The SDS has the typical stoddard solvent, cetane improver and the lubricant listed as proprietary or “ trademark secret”. Typically.

 

[Coaldust]

Since this thread is all over the place, and we are talking fuel and planes and 100LL. I’m going to brag about my boy and future in-house company pilot. Practicing approach work today in N97705. Burning some of that $7.00 100LL from Crowley.

 

[skyking1]

Congrats Dad
You know how to make a small fortune in aviation?





Start with a large one!


I'll be here all week......

 

[Coaldust]

Crowley has the only barge credentialed to transport aviation gasoline, as far as I know, on the West Coast. All 100LL comes from Crowley. Some gets trucked in from Canada. Crowley occasionally runs out late in the season. I have no idea where the Canadian av gas comes from.

 

[Coaldust]

Thanks Skyking. He’s really jazzed about it. Trying hard to get Mom & Dad to go in halfsies on various piles of junk he finds. I do appreciate his enthusiasm.

 

[skyking1]

Yes hold him off on the piles of junk till you do a lot of research. Just as buying diesel truck in Western Washington will cost a premium, buying any airplane in Alaska is going to cost a premium.
Much better to get some experience under his belt and go shopping in the broader market, once you all have a clue what you want.

 

[Coaldust]

Good advice. I suggested to just keep, keeping on with what he’s doing with Angel Aviation. I don’t really want a plane project next to my single-wide. I’d have to dig a new hole for the outhouse and move it.

My retired neighbor has a nice 5/8 mile gravel strip adjacent to my backyard. Could probably work a deal with him for access. Clear some birch trees and create a grass taxi-way.

 

[Nige]

I’ll take a look. I was interested myself regarding what was actually in the secret sauce.

According to some documents I found our Shell ULSD used Innospec additives for Cetane Improver (Stadis® 425 ), Detergent (EcoClean), Oxidation Stabilizer (AO-24), & Lubricity Improver DCI-6A).

It's also worth mentioning that all diesel fuel (whether it is ULSD or not) that is sold as being "in conformance with" ASTM Standard D975 must conform to a minimum standard for lubricity - a maximum 520μm scar size on the D6079 HFRR rig.
NOTE: ASTM D975 has been the standard for diesel fuel for decades now.
From all the analysis results I've seen over the years the actual lubricity of the fuel generally is significantly better than the value required under the standard. Typical scar size analysis values were in the region of 300-350μm.

 

[Coaldust]

Nige,

innospec is a big global player. So is Afton Chemical. With Lubrizol, Chevron Oronite Company and BASF to a lesser extent.

When we had the Anchorage Police Department contract with the Muni for RUG, part of the agreement was that we would supply 93 octane. We could only get 90 at the rack. So, we blended them a 93 RUG using a Innospec additive that came in a drum.

 

[Coaldust]

Innospec Lubricity Improver DCI-6A appears to be mostly Calcium Nitride according to the SDS.