Old Grove Truck Crane - Opinions Wanted

[JBI]

I happened on this crane when I bought a vertical bandsaw from it's owner. It's on an old Loadstar 1800 tandem with a 345 gas engine, and the crane has it's own gas engine mounted in the house. It's in excellent condition; been stored inside since it was made in the early 70's. It's a light crane, the load chart shows 16k at 10' going down to 2000 at 40'. Does have a jib that lets it get up to 68' I believe. There is no A2B and it hasn't been certified for years. Very quiet running (I'd never been around a gas crane before) and very smooth. Truck has 4 outriggers, one at each corner of the flatbed. In transport position, the truck is 9'9" high and 23' OAL.

I think this was one of the first cranes that Grove made. There's no model number on the boom, just says, "Grove." The operator sits in an enclosed cab that rotates with the boom. The owner does have the manuals to it but I haven't seen them, just a picture of the load chart. There are charts for on / off outriggers and single or tandem wheeled chassis. My question is, what does it take to get a crane like this legal to take on jobsites for small jobs?

Just FYI, I'm not currently a crane company; I'm a welder/fabricator with forklifts and such. I've been around cranes enough that I know some of the ropes, and have a lot of time running smaller stuff like a Grove 10T carry-deck, whose chart on outriggers is slightly weaker than this crane's and which doesn't have as much stick. I have some seat time in an old Grove 60T truck crane as well. A lot of the stuff I set weighs 5k lbs or less and needs to be set 15-20' in the air at a max radius of 25'.

I know that the truck itself, while low-miled and in great shape, is old and outdated with hydraulic brakes, and it may or may not be more practical to sell it and just transfer the crane portion to another chassis. I believe I could buy the truck and crane the way it sits for $10k. I just don't know if it's even possible for me to take it on modern jobsites, and if so, what sorts of things do I have to upgrade or replace? Would really appreciate your thoughts.

 

[JBI]

 

[JBI]

The owner sent me these pictures. Sorry for the extra words in the OP, I didn't realize I'd be able to get the pics on here.

 

[Old Doug]

Thats a cool old crane but you need to check out what it will cost in insurance and if it needs to be updated to use it on customers jobs. I dont think it is worth 10k maybe 5k and if you cant use it its not worth that. The brakes would need a gone throw replaceing every thing from the brake peddle pad back i bet parts are hard to find they were for my Ford. another truck could be the way to go because it would need more than brakes in the long run.

 

[skyking1]

it is not worth considering for most commercial work, simply looking at the chart limitations. As Doug said it is not worth 10K.
When you get out on the job you will be working at the 45' and greater radius most of the time. IMO that is too little chart for anything but setting trusses.
What it would be good for is my personal use, but it is across the country :forehead slap:

 

[crane operator]

The a frame jibs are a pain in the ass to put on. A different truck would be a big help, but that's quite a bit of work. It will be smooth running. The swing on it will be a direct gearbox, not free swing like the later grove's. Which I don't like, but a lot of boom trucks have auto brakes also- and some guys prefer that.

I'm not sure of any regulations in VA, but for just general use: I would have it inspected by a competent 3rd party inspector. You have to be a certified crane operator. You will need to tell your insurance company- they may cover it as just equipment under your general liability policy- or you may need a separate rider. They probably won't want you to lift other people's stuff on other peoples jobsites (crane rental), without a whole different policy.

If you could get someone to haul them, I have a 15 ton galion neck breaker, and a 15 ton broderson carry deck, and I don't have $20,000 in either one of them. My galion is late 90's and the broderson is a '02. I would want either one of those on a jobsite before what you have posted. The galion has 60' of main, the broderson only 36'. But you would have to have either of them hauled in.

In my state, the truck has to be plated and insured, dot #'s if you want to go out of state, and that ends up a lot of paperwork. Which I wouldn't want to go through for that small of a crane.

For me- the small size of the crane, and all the work and $ to remount it wouldn't be worth it. If you really need truck mobile vs something hauled, you could get a old grove tms200-250 (still under $20,000 likely) for not much more $$ than that, and those have 80' of main and 104' with a easy swing away jib. The 80' main will be miles ahead of what you are looking at.

If you prefer, a small boom truck with flatbed is what a lot of guys use in your profession. You can haul some of the steel to jobsite with the truck, and ones with only 80' of main don't bring a lot of $$$ used. You could get into a much nicer truck and crane that would be much more useful.

Just as a "for example" here's a 1981 mack with a 875 national on it. 75' of main boom, 100' of height with jib on. At $30,000 asking price, I easily think you buy it in the $20's. It would be light years ahead in use than the old grove. And if you pay 10k for the old crane, and 10k for a truck to put under it, you're in the mid 20's already.

https://www.cranetrader.com/listing...on-1981-mack-rd686s-mounted-boom-truck-cranes



In reality, you need to look at the old grove as a 40' boom machine, because the jib is a pain. You can get just as much steel set by renting a 10k 54' telehandler. Get something with more stick if you really need a crane.

 

[skyking1]

yes renting a brand new 10K telehandler is far more gratifying, useful, and productive for what you describe.
I'll rent one for a month after I get my concrete poured, I value the extra help that much.

 

[crane operator]

I was around 2 of those style groves, they are late 60's and probably no newer than a 1971-72. Grove had gone to trapezoidal booms by then.

 

[JBI]

Yeah, this was the first Grove I've seen without a trapezoidal boom. No skin off my teeth not getting this one, but it's a pretty cool piece even if outdated. I'm sure there's barely a Grove-specific part in the hydraulic system; it could probably be kept running indefinitely regardless of whether Grove stocked one part for it these days.

So the job I'm on right now has a Grove YB4410 carry deck with a diesel. I've put probably 300 hrs on it so far, with at least that many more coming. Are there bigger carry decks than this, or do you go straight to RT's from there? I've got a 10T equipment trailer and an Int'l 4900 to haul it with, and a carry deck would be handy on jobs also, although you run into both lift capacity and boom length issues pretty quick.

My jobs are fairly tight areas to work in, and any crane I get needs to be small and agile. That's one of the things I liked about the old Grove....the truck is both short in height and in OAL. The boom trucks I'm familiar with are considerably longer and taller, and truck cranes even more so. I'm not planning (at this time) to rent out my crane to anyone else; it'd be for my use on jobsites and would expand the type of work I can do. Do they make boom trucks with the boom lengths or capacities that y'all are talking about but that are able to be turned around in a 10 acre field?

Have used a telehandler extensively. The issue with them is drift. They drift a lot more quickly than cranes do, and many times I'm holding something in midair for an hour or more during assembly.

If I do find an older crane, say a truck crane or a carry deck, what sorts of retrofits can I expect to go through to make it legal to be on jobsites? Are A2B's and digital scales a requirement? A lot of the older cranes I see don't have scales on them. Are there generic ones that sense strain on the load line somehow, and you just upload your chart to the scale? I assume an A2B is a lot easier to fit.

Anyway, just some random thoughts. I appreciate y'all's input and welcome whatever else you'd like to send my way.

 

[crane operator]

I've retrofitted A2b and scales to older cranes. Scale and a2b will set you back around 4-5k. If you want boom length and full lmi, probably around 8-10k. I like the Cranesmart systems. They use a tensiometer between becket and ball/ block to get the weight, and are very accurate and simple. I have usually just bought a scale, and used the factory boom angle indicator and boom length to determine chart- not retrofitted to full lmi with chart in the computer and function kick out. It requires a little more work on the operators part- but it keeps it all simpler- and you can move the electronics from crane to crane much easier.

A2b and a scale are not required if its not original equipment, unless you want to do manbasket work, and that requires a2b. A scale makes it pretty hard to go out of chart, if you know what it weighs for sure, its pretty hard to get in trouble.

My 15 ton broderson ic-200 is right at 30,000, so you won't get it on a 10t trailer. The newer brodersons have 50' main plus jib. Mine is 36' plus jib- overall 51' of stick.

My 15 ton galion (150 fa) is 44,000lbs. 60' main and another 20' jib. Its a underslung jib and they aren't fun to put on and off a lot. But it would get you 80' of stick with the jib on. Got to have a double drop lowboy to haul one- they are pretty tall.

If you are in and out of the cab/ controls a lot (fitting/ measuring/ welding), a carry deck or a boom truck with platform controls are a lot handier- the galion is kind of a climb in and out unless you're really small and limber.

Are your sites industrial/ paved? Or are you off in the mud? My galion don't mind a little mud, the carry deck isn't really a off road machine.

If you are on sites for more than few weeks, a rt that you move in and out makes sense. If you are site to site daily, then the trucking is going to get pretty spendy, a boom truck or truck crane makes a lot more sense.

 

[JBI]

The worst sites I deal with are hardpack gravel or solid dirt....I don't need a crane in the mud. The biggest thing with an RT is like you said, transport and operator location. I'm my only employee and there are no helpers. I built the business that way on purpose, and it's saved me a lot of headaches, but it does mean some things are harder. Running from the crane to the load and back to the crane is one of those things.

What would be really cool would be if you could retrofit a cordless electric remote over the hydraulics on an older crane... I could swing the load into rough position and then go up where the load is and set it in final position.

Again, does anybody make a boom truck type crane that gets out there a decent distance but also is relatively compact? That's my biggest holdup with boom trucks, the length. One of my jobsites is a metal shredder and they don't shut down for most upgrades and repairs. So there are loaders, tractor trailers, etc running around on a really tight lot. I can fit a 30' truck like the old International in the original post, but something much longer isn't going to fly. This is the jobsite where they bought the 10T Grove carry-deck for me to use several years ago, but it just doesn't quite have the boom length or capacity for some things.

I'll do some reading about those small truck cranes mentioned earlier.