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No.1 diesel

Discussion in 'Shop Talk' started by rmllarue91, Feb 7, 2022.

  1. rmllarue91

    rmllarue91 Senior Member

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    Hey HEF i was wonder how far south is no.1 diesel sold. I'm from northeast pa and never seen the stuff. We have winter blend no.2 but on them cold days we get -0 farenheit night time temp. probably less than 10-15 days a winter a lighter fuel would be nice. With a clean fuel system and new filters problems are few and far between. But on 10 to 30 year construction equipment that's not always the case. Some of my customers spend mountains of money on fuel conditioners and emergency fuel additives.... And definitely TAX there starting system for no reason. Kerosene is available but the hoses are kept short to limit the sale.......
     
  2. CM1995

    CM1995 Administrator

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    What's #1 diesel? We only have one type of diesel here which is either road fuel (non-dyed) or dyed for off-road but it's the same fuel. The only reason for the dye is to identify it as we don't pay road use taxes on it.
     
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  3. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Aka "low temperature" diesel with a lower Cloud Point than #2 diesel. What they run in the Great White north to stop the fuel gelling up in winter. Nothing whatsoever to do with dyed fuel and taxes.

    We had to use it on certain mine sites in the Andes in winter. There were 2 supply options in those days, one being a fully refined #1 diesel, the other being a #2 diesel cut with kerosene to lower the Cloud Point.

    A fully refined #1 diesel is significantly more expensive than a #2 diesel fuel from the same refinery.
     
  4. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

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    #1 is also a higher cetane for easier starting. Some JD manuals recommend #1 for over 5,000' elevation, regardless of temperature. kerosene is a lower cetane, but won't gel or cloud like #2.

    I've never seen undyed #1 fuel, but it might be sold farther north, where they'd use it in trucks more. Some pumps here are in cities that still have gravity oil stoves, I'm surprised there are none in PA, maybe they all use Kerosene. Here, kerosene is used for unvented heaters :eek:, but rarely.
     
  5. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    Do you notice a difference in fuel economy between the the two? It seems like I have heard that #1 might not be quite as good but I have no idea.
     
  6. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    #1 diesel won’t give the same fuel economy as #2.
     
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  7. Coaldust

    Coaldust Senior Member

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    The mileage difference is readily apparent. 8-10 more weeks before we switch back to #2ULSD. About the same time the mosquitoes emerge and the sap starts flowing in the birch trees.
     
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  8. oarwhat

    oarwhat Senior Member

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    My old 980's and 988's smoked way less with #1 diesel and #2 mix . I don't know the reason why. We mixed 70/30 or 60/40. When the low sulfur fuel came out we where told it wouldn't help. The first years of low Sulfur fuel we had problems with gelling with or without #1 added.
     
  9. oarwhat

    oarwhat Senior Member

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    Better or worse mileage
     
  10. Coaldust

    Coaldust Senior Member

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    #2 ULSD is better, more BTU’s per gallon. It’s hard to generalize, but I’ll say the average diesel pickup will see a 2-3 MPG increase when we switch over. But, warmer weather means less idle time and dry pavement means less wheel slip.
     
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  11. Acoals

    Acoals Well-Known Member

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    #1 diesel fuel

    #1 grade products have less energy components and are more expensive that their chief counterpart, #2 grade products. However, it rarely has problems in cold weather conditions, which is completely the opposite of #2 grade. This is because paraffin (a type of wax) has been removed from the chemical mix. The absence of this chemical allows it to remain in liquid form during the winter months.

    #2 diesel fuel
    #2 grade diesel fuel is the most readily available at most gas stations throughout the world. This chemical compound holds the highest amount of energy components and lubricant properties in one mixture and offers the best fuel performance available on the market today. Most scientists agree that #2 grade diesel fuel will protect injection pumps, seals, and other important engine parts.

    Typically, #2 is less expensive than #1 because it doesn’t require the same depth of refinement to produce for sale. The downside to #2 diesel is its tendency to transform into a thickened gel when the temperature drops. This often leads to hard starts and other complications during winter.

    Winterized diesel fuel
    Winterized diesel fuel is a combination of #1 and #2 fuels that, when blended together, holds a higher concentration of #1 grade diesel fuel. These fuels are used during the months when it becomes too cold to use #2 grade.

    The combination of both grades of fuel should contain enough energy components and lubricant properties to reduce the chance of the chemical mix gelling in colder temperatures. Typically, the fuel economy drops slightly during the winter months because the demand for it is less than at other times of the year.

    Taken from: https://kendrickoil.com/understanding-differences-diesel-fuel-grades/
     
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  12. CM1995

    CM1995 Administrator

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    Thanks Nige. I knew it didn't have anything to do with taxes it's just the only difference in diesel fuel here.
     
  13. crane operator

    crane operator Senior Member

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    Ha- you probably don't even own a stocking hat! You don't need to know about #1- its a Yankee thing.:)

    That said, #1 is basically kerosene, diesel without the wax (they refine #2 more and pull out the wax). #2 diesel has what they call a "cloud point" of around 14 degrees. At that point the wax in the fuel will start to gell (freeze).

    Most fuel stations in cold areas will start to "blend" their fuel when temps get around freezing, and they are going to stay down there. In central Iowa we would start to see blended delivered late october if you asked for it (or they would ask if you wanted blended then if you don't use too much), late november you would get blended automatically when you bought #2. And it stayed blended until temps started to warm up.

    Blended is a mixture of #2 and #1 in a 70/30 or 60/40 mixture, to lower the gelling point of the fuel. A blend mix of #1 and #2 will generally keep you good to -25 or -30 f. Below -30 you need straight #1.


    When I lived in central Iowa, #1 wasn't terribly common but available (if you were headed north you wanted to buy it), it was most common to find "winter blend" of #1 and #2. When I lived just south of the minnesota border for a couple years- #1 is very common. Its quite a bit colder there.
     
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  14. Jonas302

    Jonas302 Senior Member

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    #1 is available at some pumps in MN not all we never buy it though we are pretty adamant about fueling at the shop and not getting random fuel in the winter the tanks have 50/50 blend in it most of the winter
     
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  15. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    It depends on what we're doing, when I blew snow in the winter, that tractor ran straight number one in it, the rest of the equipment we used a blended fuel, after spending a night or two in a snow storm in a gelled up tractor cab freezing my butt off, I for one didn't care about fuel economy, power or performance, all I cared was the tractor kept running so I could make it back home to a warm bed to sleep in and straight number did that for me, also kept plenty of new fuel filters on had in the cab behind the seat as a precaution, and back then since the tractors had mechanical pumps and injectors, we carried both automatic transmission fluid and power service in the cab as well, once gelled up, you'd fill the new filters full of either the transmission fluid or power service and screw them back on and start the tractor back up and go back to blowing snow. It also helped to run heated fuel tanks on any equipment in frigid temps, but back then we'd run in wind chills as low as 80 below zero or more in white out conditions so heated tanks were a must, even straight number one would jell up if the wind chill got cold enough while the tractors were running and the engines were warm. For a side note, we like the Case tractors the best, those engines had the fuel pump and injector lines on the same side of the engine as the exhaust manifold, deere and Ih the pump was on the other side of the engine or cold [intake] side were about impossible to keep running in frigid temps even with heated tanks.

    The newer engines have much more bypass fuel flowing through the system at all times verses the older engines did, so we just run artic fox heaters on everything now, couple that with the added fuel bypass flow and heated tanks are a thing of the past.

    Even today I don't care what anyone says, when it starts to get cold in the fall, we start to blend fuel, starting out we do 80/20, then up to 70/30 and before we're done and shut down due to frost, we're up to either 60/40 or 50/50, that's both for on road and off road, my fuel supplier knows this and has it on hand for the first cold spell or before. We also change out all the fuel filters the first time it gets cold out say down to the 20's, any moisture accumulation over the summer always ends up as frozen filters the first cold snap, so we just automatically change all the filters that first cold morning no matter what. Too many bad memories of sleeping in a cold cab in a blinding snow storm stuck in the center of a road somewhere and hoping the batteries didn't go dead so I still had strobes running to warn someone my machine was blocking the road all night long and waiting for help to show up the next morning to get me back going again before I froze to death.........literally.

    On a semi blended fuel would usually drop the mileage by about a mile per gallon, but that depended on the blend and engine in the truck, tractors lost about 15 percent of hp and it would burn about that same amount more fuel per hour, so the pumps were turned up to compensate the lower hp and front fuel tanks we hooked up to add fuel capacity and more water lines were run from the engine to the front tank, and then wrapped in water heater insulation to attempt to keep them warmer, which never worked anyhow due to the snow we were blowing constantly covering the lines with new layers of cold snow all the time as the wind changed directions all the time, that and the added fuel tanks were completely exposed on all sides.

    But back in the day, about the time the engines gelled up, even with everything else to keep them going, the hydraulics would freeze up anyhow, with the constant cold snow on the housings, that whole shock cold on the outside and warm inside would cause condensation to build up in the hydraulics and when things started to shift hard or the steering wheel would turn harder, it was time to head to a heated shed to thaw things back out again and drain the oil and put in new. Yes hydraulic oil will freeze in a running machine with enough moisture in the system and no, despite what the experts say, there are times the system can't boil off the excess moisture out of the oil...........been there and done that, not going to repeat it again type of thing because a frozen up hydraulic system in a blizzard wasn't fun either. Most tractors had the hydraulic filters on the outside of the housing and before long, those filters would freeze up and stop the oil from flowing and starve the pump for oil, causing the jerky steering or hard to turn steering wheel or slow shifting as the pumps cavitated.
     
  16. terex herder

    terex herder Senior Member

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    Randy, you must be from the Minnesnowta side of the state.
     
  17. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    Growing up as a kid, there were some really severe winters in my area, so my dad bought a snow blower, when I started farming i had to have one as well in order to feed cattle and do chores. As luck would have it, the places I've lived collected a lot of snow, with wind currents and location of buildings, snow removal was a constant battle, the more the wind blew, the more snow there was to move, call it luck of the draw, couple that with the roads we lived on which were also impassible in severe weather and you've got lifetime job security moving snow. Then toss in the fact, when the weather gets really bad, the counties pull the snow plows and maintainers off the roads...............but life still goes on, people need to get home, people still get sick and inured, people need electricity to keep houses warm and the lights on, so portable generators need to be moved constantly from place to place, livestock still to be fed daily, milk haulers still need to pick up milk on dairy farms, vets still need to get to sick and inured animals and lastly people still do some really stupid things, like not stock up on food and needed things before the storm hits....................so they venture out anyhow and yes those suffering dementia and alzheimers didn't miraculously get cured, so when an 80 plus year old neighbor lady thinks she's late for school will wander out in a blinding snow storm at 4pm in order to get to school on time...........and someone needs to go looking for her because she's dressed in her night gown yet... yes those things still happen in white out conditions and weather so bad only an idiot would leave the house............... so you do whatever it takes to keep life moving forward and everyone safe and peoples livelihoods going including my own.

    There is good and bad in everything, but I can tell you this much, living in a remote area, you appreciate every day you can jump into a vehicle and just drive to wherever it is you need to go, you also appreciate it when everyone stocks up ahead of time and when the weather really turns bad, your phone never rings unless its someone who just wants to chat about nothing important.

    Its been over a decade since I've even had the snowblower on any tractor, we've just not had any severe winters lately I guess, but I still own two tractor mounted snow blowers and neither are going anywhere as long as I'm alive, their the best thing money ever bought, even better when they sit in shed not used, same goes for a generator, I still remember the winter my tractor and generator never shut off for 11 days straight in order to keep the farm and everything on it alive, fed, watered and thawed out. The whole off the gird living is a nice theory, but reality sucks when its 80 below has been for over a week and you've got 300 head of cattle, five kids and a wife and the tractor and generator is running 24/7 and if anything goes wrong, there is nobody that CAN come to save any of you, then it really sinks in just how alone you really are, as they say, your funeral will be in good weather once the storms all over with, and that's about as real as it gets. Yes back in the day, we also had two generators just in case, and plenty of number one fuel on hand at all times, we bought fuel and transmission filters, power service and automatic transmission fluid in volume to have on hand at all times, along with enough fuses and extra wiring, circuit breakers to stock a small city for decades just in case things went really bad.

    It sank in one day decades ago, a friend of mine called, he was in Hawaii on vacation and after chatting for a while I told him it was 160 degrees colder where I was compared to him, he was sitting on beach and it was 80 degree's, the temp with wind chill was over 80 below where I was at. That winter we had over 80 below wind chills for two straight weeks, for two months the temp never reached zero out, as they say the little things in life mean the most and green grass in the spring was the most beautiful sight, the next most beautiful sight was taking the snow blower off the tractor, and putting the generator away meant winter was finally over with.

    Some place I still have the picture, back in the late 60's my father in law bought a brand new JD 4020 diesel tractor with cab, and the photo is of his new tractor sitting on a wind blown hard snow drift, the next photo is from the other side of the house, and the house roof was below him, that was an old late 1800's two story house and yes the snow drift went up and over the house. He gave up trying to keep the front door open, and it had a door on the second floor that went out onto the flat roof of the kitchen, its still there today, many houses had them and for that reason, he used that door as the front door all winter long, none of the first story house windows were visible at all and only those windows on the back side of the house were visible on the second story, the rest of the house was one huge snow drift, hard enough to drive a 4020 tractor up on and take the picture..............just outside of Waverly Iowa also in a very rural area. Without the photo, nobody would ever believe it possible to sit a tractor up on a two story house roof in the middle of winter...............he was also a huge believer in number one diesel fuel all his life.
     
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  18. WaterDoc

    WaterDoc Well-Known Member

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    25% worse.

    I can always tell when the stations have switched to winter blend diesel. I have to fill every day rather than every other day.
     
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  19. skyking1

    skyking1 Senior Member

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    #1 135,000 btu/ gallon.
    #2 139,000 btu/ gallon.
    Gasoline 116,000
    Propane 84250
     
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  20. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    Propane should be somewhere north of 90k
     
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