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New to me TL130- Drive issue

jav

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Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
110
Location
MA
Ok- so I'm seeking pre-emptive guidance. Just bought the machine and the story is a drive motor line burst. The owner didn't know why the machine suddenly lost drive on the one side and proceeded to wrestle the machine onto his trailer under it's own power- some 30-50 feet away. Got it loaded then noticed all the oil.

He drove the trailer right to the dealer where they replaced all the lines, flushed, filled and blead the system only to find the side with burst line is now lazy. Pressure tested the pump and that side now had lower pressure than the other side. They recommended a pump rebuild at dealer prices which he didn't fancy so he offered the machine to me.

Question- with a blown hose I would presume the pump starved for oil which likely damaged it. My concern is- how likely is it that debris from that pump was later pushed into the drive motor and or other pumps when the dealer tested it? BTW- the machine still runs and drives and there are no odd noises... its just one side doesn't have the same drive force or speed compared to the other side. The dealer told him not to drive it and basically he brought it home and parked it.

What would be the best way to investigate exactly where the damage starts/stops while doing no do more harm? Any experience with this type of thing?

thanks in advance
 

Txhayseed

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2019
Messages
610
Location
Texas
You really cant. If there was debris in the system it would go with the flow until something stoped it. Theres no guarantee the pump let loose and debris was pushed into the system with out opening it up and looking at the internals and seeing the nature of the failure. You could remove the hydraulic filter and cut it open and look. Send out a sample of hydraulic fluid for analysis but unless you got x ray vision you would need to remove the failed component and do a full failure inspection. We had a 18k excavator that blew a pump once. Dealer told us it needed this that a flush etc etc. About 10k in labor and parts. Ordered a reman pump. Two sets of filters. Drained the tank refilled. Changed filters ran it a while. Changed filters. Machine is still working hard today with out any other hydraulic related failures.
 

jav

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Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
110
Location
MA
thanks for that. So my plan was to buy a hydraulic pressure test kit to confirm pressures. From what has been said, I presume the left side (rear most) variable displacement pump has scored the valve plate to rotating piston assembly surfaces? At least my research suggests this is the most likely failure mode given what happened? I didn't know if performing case drain measurements on the pumps and final drives was worth doing before pulling the tandem pump?

I'm told the system was drained and flushed but i plan to do it again, replace the filters... and disect the current one to see if theres any evidence of shavings.

I have a machine shop so my hope is that upon inspection, i can replace the valve plate and hone the rotating assembly surface? The Manual suggests I can remove .015 " but I'm not sure if the internal spring will compensate for the material removal or if the assembly needs too be shimmed to compensate? Does anyone have any pump rebuild experience?
 

Ronsii

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Jun 26, 2011
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3,464
Location
Western Washington
Occupation
s/e Heavy equipment operator
If you suspect debris in the system then every minute you run it ups the risk of ruining more components!!!! So if you have the capability of taking some stuff apart and inspecting it BEFORE running it any more!!! I personally would do that even though the dealer supposedly checked and flushed things.

I have seen what happens when a guy puts a new $12k pump in an excavator after some thumb problems while they only flushed the thumb circuit:eek: basically that new 12k pump was shot in less than 30 minute of running the machine :(
 

jav

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Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
110
Location
MA
i spoke to the dealer that did the line, flush and test and while they weren't very helpful with actual test results, the tech did say they found no signs of debris in the system (which didn't make sense to me). There concern was the pump should be replaced before catastrophic failure occurs. I tend to think if the surfaces have scored, then there has to be some debris... but they didn't find any.
 

jav

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Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
110
Location
MA
Thanks Skata- I plan to but since the machine is new to me, I want to get good base line pressures beforehand so I know where the machine sits now... and so I have a way to gauge improvement once it's fixed. I was hoping the dealer who did this and shared the values but ….that was wishful thinking.
 

skata

Senior Member
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
1,541
Location
midwest
I haven't done it myself, but the pumps aren't too bad to remove are they? They're right under the seat.
And if you open the pump up, then you'll know if you had debris or not in your system. And look for wear.
 

skata

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May 10, 2007
Messages
1,541
Location
midwest
One question I have, if the pressure line going to the drive motor burst, the main pump would not starve for oil. Unless the whole tank emptied out. But then all the pumps would have run dry. Right?
 

jav

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Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
110
Location
MA
I think your logic is correct on the fluid. I'm always a little gun shy accepting "stories" but that and what the dealer told me (and he was not very helpful or forthcoming) is all I have to go on. My guess is the drive motor line broke causing that side to have little pressure and not much flow back to the pump from drive motor. I'm guessing charge pressure would have fed the pump on the pressure drive side but the loss of pressure and flow back from the motor may have caused scoring on the suction side between the rotating assembly and the valve plate? It is an absolute guess given what I've been told?

That's kind of why I'd like to get some good pressure readings before I do anything just to see where I'm at. I asked the dealer for the readings and they wouldn't provide them. I asked if charge pressures were good and again- they wouldn't or couldn't answer.

As to how difficult??? I'm not sure on the Tak… I haven't even tilted the cab yet since I have too many projects at the moment and the test gauge set hasn't arrived.
 

jav

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Oct 26, 2009
Messages
110
Location
MA
OK- I started digging into the machine today. What is it with Japanese service manuals??? I bought the full set just like I did for my Komatsu and the drive motor hose are shown backwards in the Takeuchi manuals too! I went to take pressure reading on the "forward" ports for both motors and got zero readings. After questioning my brand new test gauges- I confirmed charge pressure was good and then tried the "reverse" ports and found pressure when the joystick commands forward motion at te reverse hoses??? Perhaps because the planetary drives reverse travel????

Anyway- right motor pump is pretty close to spec at almost 5000 psi but the left pump (the one that's sluggish) could only produce 2200 psi. I tried to see if the relief valve could be adjusted but it appears to be under the pump and I'm not sure I can access it with the pump in place?

I think my next step is to drain the hydraulic system, mark all the lines and pull the pump. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
 

jav

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Oct 26, 2009
Messages
110
Location
MA
Mike- its with the motor still connected, brake off, but with the drive sprockets locked with a steel pipe across them so they can't spin. That's how the manual describes the test. BTW- the hydraulic oil wasn't fully up to temp as I have the machine up on blocks but it wasn't dead cold either.

Do you recommend a deadhead test before pulling the pump? I didn't think this was important but to make all details known... when I initially tied the gauge to the forward port for the left side motor, when I started the engine, I did read very low pressure (about 200psi) on the port before pushing the joystick forward. As soon as I pushed the joystick forward pressure went to 0 (I presume because that port went to the suction side of the variable displacement pump)? I presumed I was just reading charge pressure in neutral???
 
Last edited:

jav

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Oct 26, 2009
Messages
110
Location
MA
Skata- makes sense. I might try a dead head pressure test tonight. I presume I'd need to deadhead both ports on the pump... in and out? Otherwise wouldn't the suction side pull any oil of the motor though the line that remained connected?
 

skata

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May 10, 2007
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I would think you only plug the pressure side. If you plug the suction side, there's no fluid to create pressure.
 

jav

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Oct 26, 2009
Messages
110
Location
MA
I couldn't find a plug last night so off to the Hydraulic supply house today. Hopefully they're open for business.
 

jav

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Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
110
Location
MA
Struck out on a cap/plug. I bought #12 BSP, JIS and JIC- caps. Only the JIC looked correct with a female thread but a male tapered profile. They all start but bind after the 1st or second turn so I'm not chancing damaging the pump. I retested pressure cold with the drive motor blocked ... it was a little better at just over 2800 psi but it looks like I'll be pulling the pump.

It seems the TL130 uses a Danfoss pump but it appears to be Takeuchi specific. I asked my local Hydraulic supply house to price a new rotating group, port plate and seal kit for an Danfoss series 42 tandem pump and they couldn't source anything through Danfoss with that info.... only Takeuchi.

I'll wait to see what I find when I get inside. Hopefully it won't be too bad since it's making almost 3000 PSI? Perhaps honing might suffice?
 

jav

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Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Messages
110
Location
MA
Found the problem

I think i can save the rotating group. The scarring is less than .005". The valve port plate is only $160 so I'll replace that. Thoughts?
IMG_3312.JPG IMG_3313.JPGIMG_3315.JPG
 
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