Manu
Active Member
The driven gears in an engine do not typically have a very heavy torque load but when they are driving an accessory that exceeds 75 horsepower then it can be problematic.
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New to me D8K, operation, maintenance, adjustments
- Thread starter Alberta Farmer
- Start date
Check Break
Senior Member
Shame on you. Hitachi and AC did extensive planning on the breakdown of those machines. Someone else is going to have to pay more for their parts now that you've violated the Prime Directive.
Check Break
Senior Member
Garbage dumps will destroy any machine. On the construction side, most sprocket seals leak because the duo cone seal between the pinion and final fails and the final fills with 30w. Cat changed the composition of the pinion seal toric ring but it's been too long for me to remember how. All I remember is it went from blue to black. Have to revisit that one of these days.
Nige
Senior Member
In the case of Hitachi we were told "You can't use TO-4/FD-1 oil to replace EP90, we haven't tested it".
My reply - "We'll happily volunteer to be the guinea pigs, because our machines are out of warranty anyway, and we'll share our oil analysis information with you".
No response - so we went ahead and did it anyway and f**k 'em.........
Nige
Senior Member
This kinda sums it ups .....
Manu
Active Member
That attitude isn't a good idea to apply to maintaining equipment or perhaps any other pursuit because it can lead to injury,death or financial ruin.
The issue in question is the use of correct oils. We have to be very careful if we don't follow manufacturer recommendations. They usually set forth those for various reasons which may not be that obvious like if a compartment has brake pistons which use brake fluid the seals are very sensitive to mineral oils. I have seen in some areas a practice is to lubricate toric rings with grease or brakeclean to make duocones easier to install.That is wrong to do as it can guarantee seal failure when it can chemically affect the seal composition and cause the seal rubber to swell, soften or harden. In a personal case I once bought a vehicle that the previous owner had put synthetic oils in the axles and transfer case: the seals were leaking.I drained all compartments and replaced all seals and put recommended oils in them : end of problem. It is not a good idea to mix brands of oil either if they come from different areas their chemical compositions might vary: stick with the devil you know rather than the devil you don't.
I have seen one place where the master mechanic didn't believe in changing oils because he said the new oils have sharp molecules and will cause cause wear. That bizarre idea likely helped cause that company to insolvency and sixty people to be without jobs
The issue in question is the use of correct oils. We have to be very careful if we don't follow manufacturer recommendations. They usually set forth those for various reasons which may not be that obvious like if a compartment has brake pistons which use brake fluid the seals are very sensitive to mineral oils. I have seen in some areas a practice is to lubricate toric rings with grease or brakeclean to make duocones easier to install.That is wrong to do as it can guarantee seal failure when it can chemically affect the seal composition and cause the seal rubber to swell, soften or harden. In a personal case I once bought a vehicle that the previous owner had put synthetic oils in the axles and transfer case: the seals were leaking.I drained all compartments and replaced all seals and put recommended oils in them : end of problem. It is not a good idea to mix brands of oil either if they come from different areas their chemical compositions might vary: stick with the devil you know rather than the devil you don't.
I have seen one place where the master mechanic didn't believe in changing oils because he said the new oils have sharp molecules and will cause cause wear. That bizarre idea likely helped cause that company to insolvency and sixty people to be without jobs
Nige
Senior Member
I understand and agree with what you’re saying up to a point. In my case I have a tribology qualification as well as an engineering one. I wouldn’t go down a road to propose a lubricant change without thoroughly researching it first.
In every case mentioned above the drive box is a planetary transmission equipped with rolling element bearings, not a hypoid gear set in sight. I have improved oil analysis (and component life) to back up every lubricant change that I’ve been involved in.
In every case mentioned above the drive box is a planetary transmission equipped with rolling element bearings, not a hypoid gear set in sight. I have improved oil analysis (and component life) to back up every lubricant change that I’ve been involved in.
Check Break
Senior Member
I like it. That acronym should go on our company logo as it sums up our secret to success. When we discovered the Allison transmission would enable our trucks to keep up city traffic (made every light) and didn't need a new clutch when the driver's brain shorted, we were laughed at, but eventually everyone stopped laughing as we became the Allison poster child for our industry on the West Coast. Allison was very good to us, but in reality, we were doing them a big favor. When it came time to service the first trucks we got a shock. The manual said to use Castrol Transynd at $9/Qt. This was around 2001-2002. We bought a few drums before buying a couple of used crushing plants in 2003. The plants came with oil analysis going back to 1995 and you could see the transition between the current lube (Schaeffer) and the prior lube. Post Schaeffer failures took longer to occur because better lube can't correct damage already done, but as components were rebuilt, failure ceased. One day I asked our Schaeffer rep (shortly after receipt of the last barrel of Transynd) if he had a substitute. He didn't have an approved oil because the approval process was onerous and essentially closed to anyone but Castrol but his lab guy said their 204A would do everything Transynd would, and more. We never buy warranties and our company motto is similar to Mr. Wilson's so we rolled the dice and switched to 204A at about half price and never looked back. We've lost 4 transmissions in 19 years, one snap ring (replaced by Allison), two with valve body issues and one that failed because it wasn't serviced for four years. I have a Ford F150 that started to experience transmission failure at 50,000. It slipped between 2 and 3 all the way to 80,000 as I waited for failure. At 80,000 I filled it with 204A. If I pull a trailer the fluid starts to change color but it currently has 243,000 and I'm looking forward to the day it gasps it's last so I can see what the 204A has not done to it all these years. Your switch to TO-4 and our switch to 204A x3 or 4 is sometimes the difference between a thriving competitive business and one teetering on the brink of failure when times get tough. Now, if only we could figure out how to quantify the savings (for $h*t that never happened) and submit a request for reimbursement.
Check Break
Senior Member
That attitude isn't a good idea to apply to maintaining equipment or perhaps any other pursuit because it can lead to injury,death or financial ruin. The issue in question is the use of correct oils. We have to be very careful if we don't follow manufacturer recommendations. They usually set forth those for various reasons which may not be that obvious like if a compartment has brake pistons which use brake fluid the seals are very sensitive to mineral oils.
There's a big difference between a well reasoned decision and stupidity. In this situation, we had/have access to some very bright engineers at Schaeffer who have spent their lifetimes engineering lube products. They do more than make suggestions, they warrant what they sell if they recommend it for a particular purpose. I see this as making additional effort to locate a cheaper and often better substitute rather than being lazy and taking the easy way out, a concept that applies throughout an entire business, not just in the shop.
There's a big difference between a well reasoned decision and stupidity. In this situation, we had/have access to some very bright engineers at Schaeffer who have spent their lifetimes engineering lube products. They do more than make suggestions, they warrant what they sell if they recommend it for a particular purpose. I see this as making additional effort to locate a cheaper and often better substitute rather than being lazy and taking the easy way out, a concept that applies throughout an entire business, not just in the shop.
Manu
Active Member
It seems I may have overlooked finding a viable alternative to a manufacturer recommended lubricant by simply following their suggestion. It would then seem that they have a vested interest in not promoting the best lubricant because their core business is actually selling the parts to maintain and overhaul their machines. That is very similar to Gillette shaver business in which the profit is actually in selling the blades.Their seems to be a moral dilemma in question.
John C.
Senior Member
Machines are designed within a time frame that may have a finite amount of materials available. But time marches on as does technology. The machines built twenty, thirty or forty years ago did not have the advantages of new formulations in lubricants or material science. Manufacturers likely also don't want to recommend lubes that they would have to provide expensive testing and analysis for on machines that no longer resemble what they made all those years ago.
As for the moral dilemma, how long would a manufacturer stay in business if they made a machine that never wore out?
As for the moral dilemma, how long would a manufacturer stay in business if they made a machine that never wore out?
tctractors
Senior Member
D8 and D9 F/Drives at first used 30 C,C,Oil this being upgraded to the 50 grade T,O, 2 series oil when it was developed, this was said to reduce gear "Scuff", both the D8 and the D9 tractors use an oil pump that pumps oil through the Dead Shaft to feed the outer hub bearings, the use of to thick an oil will cause the oil pumps to fail or reduce their life in cold weather, some old style tractor Men want the 90 gear oil but the 50w is plenty good enough and should be the 1 to use, the Duo-Cone rubber rings thing is, black standard, blue high temp, the rubber rings with the steel facings are fitted dry into the casings, then you can put a lick of oil or light grease on the steel face to ensure ease of movement within the 2 steel facings. tctractors
tctractors
Senior Member
Just as an added bit of script, Caterpillar were the first people to blend oil making the first detergent oils used in Diesel engines, they also used to build single cylinder oil test engines to improve and understand the lubricating requirements of the products that they built. tctractors
Manu
Active Member
Wow. An interesting spectrum of observations. I have myself witnessed the marvelous and ingenious mechanical engineering of early Caterpillar dozers starting with Diesel Thirty or RD6: The brilliant work of those engineers of works of art 80 years ago are still capable of doing work today. The many iterations that have since followed cannot necessarily be considered as technical advancements but merely mostly changes that appease the need of perpetrating the business. There are some improvements to operator comfort and more recently some lessening of perceived atmospheric degradation (carbon neutral) which has dubious benefit....In short : Necessity is the mother of invention...or build it and they will come.
Manu
Active Member
The lubrication pump in each final drive is obviously critical to the outer hub bearings. I vaguely remember a test for it is to pull the plug on the filter cover and operate the machine in both directions. It should squirt oil out if it's working.It is driven by a gear that it engaged to one of the reduction pinions.
Manu
Active Member
The newer dozers with planetary final drives can use TO-4 oils and multigrades like TMS...which is synthetic which also might keep the older spur gear type final drives lube pumps from being damaged in extreme cold. That would keep sprocket hub outer bearings lubricated.
tctractors
Senior Member
The oil pumps only work going forward, just thought I would say. tctractors
Nige
Senior Member
Which is one of the reasons that old-school tractor drivers were discouraged from tracking long distances in reverse, even though the ground speed of the tractor was slightly higher in 3rd reverse than it was in forward. It was almost a sacking offence in some big earthmoving companies.
Manu
Active Member
Plus back blading is hard on the frog and hardware that hold the cutting edges on.
And on the sprocket and bushings by the way they release from the sprocket in reverse. Wear is greatly increased.