New septic flooded

[dayexco]

Thats what I thought. I have lost all confidence in this engineer. I have also herd how some of these guys get there degrees...:ban

Thanks guys

i have 3 brothers that are engineers, the degrees don't come cheap, or easily. should it go to court, you'd best be able to document that you built it 100% as design. not saying that there aren't engineering flaws, and that designs fail. i've also seen contractors totally ignore plans/specs, take off on a tangent of their own....and then cuss the engineer when things don't work. i wish you well

 

[dirt digger]

Thats what I thought. I have lost all confidence in this engineer. I have also herd how some of these guys get there degrees...:ban

Thanks guys

i am a current Civil Engineering major at Penn State University...i also install tons of septic fields when i work in the summer (usually 4 a month for me, around 12 for the company). Its amazing what they don't tell you in school. I have learned a lot of "book smarts" in the last 3 years then I will ever need, but i have never once heard a professor tell me to go out and look at a jobsite...it baffles me, especially when i read plans designined by a "PE" and i know something wont work just by all the field experience i have gained in the last 6 years...thats the problems with a lot of my fellow class mates, they may have an internship drawing plans but you just don't know what will work until you get out there and get your feet and hands dirty

 

[bigjake0524]

I think that the engineers will be pretty untouchable due to all of there clauses. It may be best to work with the homeowner and install a ground water interceptor for the cost of materials. Hope all turns out well.

 

[ForsytheBros.]

Hey Dan-

are you super-sure that there are no other "hidden" contributors to the field saturation? Ie, no hidden sprinkler systems nearby, no toilets that run continuously inside the home? Not doubting the solution that was presented, seems like those other issues have been some culprits for us in the past......best wishes on your resolution

 

[BIGDAN315]

Hey Dan-

are you super-sure that there are no other "hidden" contributors to the field saturation? Ie, no hidden sprinkler systems nearby, no toilets that run continuously inside the home? Not doubting the solution that was presented, seems like those other issues have been some culprits for us in the past......best wishes on your resolution

No not super sure which is a good point. Not so sure there wasn't some drainage tile that was missed and is dumping ground water into the system either.

 

[tdozer]

We had a similar problem with a few older leach fields around here. Granted, i was dealing with 20 year old systems and your dealing with a new one. whenever it would rain, the fields would back up but any other time they would work fine. the homeowners didnt want to pay for a whole new system($15000). I wound up buying 300 yards of black clay and capping the fields with it. Absolutely no water whatsoever gets throuh that stuff. its been 7 years and all 3 septics are still going strong and i saved each homeowner $12000 and a bunch of time. So that might be an idea for you if you can come across some dense clay.

 

[digger242j]

i am a current Civil Engineering major at Penn State University...i also install tons of septic fields when i work in the summer (usually 4 a month for me, around 12 for the company). Its amazing what they don't tell you in school. I have learned a lot of "book smarts" in the last 3 years then I will ever need, but i have never once heard a professor tell me to go out and look at a jobsite...it baffles me, especially when i read plans designined by a "PE" and i know something wont work just by all the field experience i have gained in the last 6 years...thats the problems with a lot of my fellow class mates, they may have an internship drawing plans but you just don't know what will work until you get out there and get your feet and hands dirty

I missed this post when it was first made, but I think it's worth commenting on.

I've long thought that nobody should be handed a pencil and allowed to design stuff, unless they've spent a few seasons with a shovel in their hand first.

Thanks, dirt digger, for confirming that impression.

:thumbsup

 

[Willis Bushogin]

Septic repair

finally some one who is on my side....:drinkup

I guess, Im not on your side either LOL, as Alan stated, its better to bit the bullet and fix it yourself. Dont wait, go do it and keep the homeowner happy, you will get more money by making it right, than you will, saying "Its not my Fault" these jobs like this can make or break you down the road, especially if you are just getting started. Do the job and then try to get the engineer to pay for it, they can drag their feet on issues like this, they dont really care most of the time (maybe I shouldnt have said that) Disregard any engineers reading this
As someone stated, you have to keep an eye on everything, when you install these systems, I have found a lot of mistakes, or things they forgot to add
Just curious, what type of leachfield system do you use in your area (this could be another forum, I didnt realize there was that many of us on this one) I use rock trenchs and Infiltrators (dome type, 25% reduction) As of 2008, we had to get certified by the state (24hrs of classes and test) to install any sytems, it depends what grade level you need, as to what test you take. I have the class IV, plus inspector. Bunch of crap, to me really, just a way to get more money out of us. This is a little off the subject.

Almost forgot, I had almost the same thing happen a few years ago, I installed a system for a new house and the ground just did pass the perk inspection, I told the HO they had to install gutters on the house and devirt the water away from the system. Thsy didnt and we had a really bad rain storm and I got a call that I scr-wed up the system, so I have to take time off from installing another system and go meet with the county inspector and HO. When I drove up, I saw what was wrong, yep-no gutters and this was a large roof and all the water was running right on top the system, plus they had built up the land in back of the system, so there was no postive drainage. The inspector asked me what I thought (funny that he would ask me) and I told me about the gutters and postive drainage, he kinda was rough on the HO, but I was in the clear on this one. They installed gutters and piped it away from the system and got the landscaper got the postive drainage correct.

Good Luck, somethings you cant win them all. But that customer will tell other people about what you did for him, good or bad. Lets hope he said
" you know, that guy came over and fixed my problem and didnt charge me anything and it was the engineers fault, he is a nice guy"
Of course, tell him up front, that the engineer made a mistake, but you are going to make it right, sometimes the HO may suprise you and pay for it.
BUT dont ask him for it.
Just my 2 cents worth, from the school of hard knocks, which I have a Masters degree:Banghead

 

[BIGDAN315]

Willis, This system was a standard stone and pipe. The back yard was tight we could only get in 200 feet. It is at a base of a hill,there is a drainage swail but thats only good for surface water. I think we need a french drain around the topside to take away ground water and to intercept drainage tile if any.There is pitch enough to take to a drainage ditch. Thanks for your input.

 

[Willis Bushogin]

Septic repair

Willis, This system was a standard stone and pipe. The back yard was tight we could only get in 200 feet. It is at a base of a hill,there is a drainage swail but thats only good for surface water. I think we need a french drain around the topside to take away ground water and to intercept drainage tile if any.There is pitch enough to take to a drainage ditch. Thanks for your input.

Theres a lot of stuff we havent heard about yet, but Im not a engineer, but I dont think a french drain will work, by itself, unless its a really big french drain. My problem with this is, with it raining real hard, the water is rushing down the hill/slopes, you need something to stop it, at the FD, to make the FD work. I have had to install a 4ft wide swale, with a small back wall out of rip rap (about 12" rocks) I lined the swale with a membrane and filled it with small rip rap(4-8" rock) I guess you could just install this wall behind the FD, but Im not sure the FD would drain a lot of water quickly, like a swale
I would not recommend anything to the engineer, let him tell you, or you might hear "well you said"
Good Luck and keep us posted and I do not write anything to be negative, just offering my 2 cents worth and hope it helps someone.
What does others think of the FD idea? Ive never used this application (FD) except around a building, that water may pond around and Ive had to go back and remove dirt, that a landscaper put there, on top of the FD, to plant his flowers in.

 

[tuney443]

Willis, This system was a standard stone and pipe. The back yard was tight we could only get in 200 feet. It is at a base of a hill,there is a drainage swail but thats only good for surface water. I think we need a french drain around the topside to take away ground water and to intercept drainage tile if any.There is pitch enough to take to a drainage ditch. Thanks for your input.

BigDan---Without even looking at this job,from everything you said here,this new system is crying for a curtain drain.It is imperative that the invert on your perforated pipe is slightly lower than the lowest leach field line.Use plenty of clean stone,either bring it up to grade or cover it with geotek.By me,ANY scenario like yours requires a curtain drain--part of the BOH's inspection.

 

[BIGDAN315]

BigDan---Without even looking at this job,from everything you said here,this new system is crying for a curtain drain.It is imperative that the invert on your perforated pipe is slightly lower than the lowest leach field line.Use plenty of clean stone,either bring it up to grade or cover it with geotek.By me,ANY scenario like yours requires a curtain drain--part of the BOH's inspection.

Tuney, I agree and there is not much else one can do with out going to allot of expence with a raised bed and pump station . ...:Banghead

 

[dirt digger]

go to the end of the trenches...dig a hole 10 feet deep by 5-6 foot wide, fill it with stone and forget about it...its a cheap fix, and won't pass inspection but for penny pinchers it does the trick

 

[oldhousehugger]

I whole heartedly agree with Alan Mesmer and the importance of maintaining customer good will. It is also important that you take care of yourself by seeking remedy from the PE who stamped the plans. As mentioned earlier he must carry insurance against just this sort of outcome. If he is any kind of designer he will know what to do and work with you to fix the problem.
If you sense he is clueless, get a more knowledgeable engineer to give a second opinion. If it ends up going to court the lawyers always get their money first. Also the town biulding officials who stamped the plans always will say that they only look for the engineers stamp because they say that's the engineer's job not theirs.

Try to look at it from the homeowners perspective. They hired you, you hired a sub (engineer) who's design proved inadequate. You bid and built to the inadequate design which doesn't work. From their perspective the balls in your court.
What's the best path for you to take in the long run?
Sure I've walked off jobs before. Sometimes there isn't a good outcome anywhere to be had. But you have got to make every attempt to make it right or you will indeed get a bad rep.
Sometimes working for free is the best money you can make all week. Welcome to the world of small bussiness.

 

[Digwizz]

Dan, what was the soil type? In my experience, a curtain drain works well with a sandy soil. If the soil has a high clay content, surface water is about all you can catch, the subsurface water has a hard time getting to the drain. If the clay content is high, your best option is to install the curtain drain in the invert of the swale and bring the stone in the curtain drain right to the top, (no soil over the stone).

I'm also questioning the design of only of 200 lf of leaching line. We would typically use 300 lf per bedroom.

One more thing, is there a chance you have a limiting layer, (impermeable layer causing water to be perched), preventing the water from leaching through the soil and draining.

Where I install systems in NE Ohio, we have alot of tight soil conditions where standard leaching line doesn't work very well and we are forced to use raised leaching lines, mound systems, and drip systems to keep our treatment out of the water.

I sense there are a bunch of guys out there who have experience with this problem!

 

[BIGDAN315]

Dan, what was the soil type? In my experience, a curtain drain works well with a sandy soil. If the soil has a high clay content, surface water is about all you can catch, the subsurface water has a hard time getting to the drain. If the clay content is high, your best option is to install the curtain drain in the invert of the swale and bring the stone in the curtain drain right to the top, (no soil over the stone).

I'm also questioning the design of only of 200 lf of leaching line. We would typically use 300 lf per bedroom.

One more thing, is there a chance you have a limiting layer, (impermeable layer causing water to be perched), preventing the water from leaching through the soil and draining.

Where I install systems in NE Ohio, we have alot of tight soil conditions where standard leaching line doesn't work very well and we are forced to use raised leaching lines, mound systems, and drip systems to keep our treatment out of the water.

I sense there are a bunch of guys out there who have experience with this problem!

Without digging out the engineers drawings I Don;t know if I remember exsactly what the soill was like. I think maybe it was a sand/clay mixture maybe more clay than sand but I do know it wasn't favarable looking stuff. By impermeable you mean bedrock or compacted soil right? None was found when the hole for the tank was dug. I do think I noticed some ground water seeping into the trenches when I was installing the leach field..ointhead 200 feet is all we had room for with his small back yard.

 

[Digwizz]

Do they allow you guys to install aeration tanks, filtration, and chlorination or UV treatment so you can treat the waste to low BOD,TSS, and pathogens and then discharge it to a road ditch. This eliminates the need for alot of space.
Imho, 200 lf is sure to fail unless water use is really limited, or the soil is pretty permeable.
Sorry to wander from the story line, believe me, I understand that you have money buried in the ground and your reputation is in danger of being damaged.
You definitely need to keep upgradient water from making it's way into your leach field.

 

[dirt digger]

Do they allow you guys to install aeration tanks, filtration, and chlorination or UV treatment so you can treat the waste to low BOD,TSS, and pathogens and then discharge it to a road ditch.

wow, i'm suprised theres other people out there that know about all this fancy ****...literally, haha

 

[JDecker]

Big Dan just wondering who the engineer is i work in the same area you do we have run into a few poor engineers. I think the best way to solve your promblem is a curtine drain. as i think some one else said. the engineer should have came out and inspeceted it before you backfilled it and singed off on it. So it should be his problem. I would talk to the custmor and tell them you bid and put the system into the way the plans showed.

 

[ARPlante]

Hey all, great advice in this thread! I'm looking to learn more about installing traditional and alternative septic systems and I was wondering if there were any good books/ websites/ pamphlets I should be reading on the subject?
Thanks,
Andrew