New septic flooded

[BIGDAN315]

I have a situation regarding a septic I installed for a homeowner. The septic was engineered and was hired by me. The problem is, the leach field is getting flooded by ground water and or run off from the hill just above the system. There is a swale to divert runoff from the hill but not enough I guess. What are my options on this matter?

 

[digger242j]

The septic was engineered and was hired by me.

I hope by this you mean that an engineer desigened it, and you were hired to build it according to the engineer's plan--not that you engineered it. Or did you hire the engineer?

Not that I have a whole lot of experience with septic systems, but it sounds to me as if the engineer failed to account for the runoff. Either that, or the agency/inspector in charge of approving the site/plans should've caught it.

 

[BIGDAN315]

I hope by this you mean that an engineer desigened it, and you were hired to build it according to the engineer's plan--not that you engineered it. Or did you hire the engineer?

Not that I have a whole lot of experience with septic systems, but it sounds to me as if the engineer failed to account for the runoff. Either that, or the agency/inspector in charge of approving the site/plans should've caught it.

Yes the engineer desigened it and I built it per plan. The engineer was hired by me to desigened it.

 

[digger242j]

Ok. That clarifies the question.

I'm no lawyer either, but now it seems as if you have some more of the burden here than if the owner had hired the engineer. Now, instead of being able to refer the owner's problem back to his engineer, you have to refer the problem back to your engineer.

What has your engineer had to say about this? (He kinda helped you get into this problem. It seems reasonable to expect him to help you out of it.)

 

[MKTEF]

Well, here around the answer is as follows:

When designing the leach field, the designer must take in consideration rain water that can flood the area.
It's also so that in a hill the field must be along the side of the slope, and a ditch made above it with drainige to remove water.

There is also a demand for a earth test to determine the soils ability to clean the black water.
Bad earths makes a demand for longer perforated lines.
Sometimes up to 220 feet of line, for one household.

If the earth is to bad, u got to build a leach "pond", where it is even more demands to type of soils, ground level and such.

Ground water level must never be higher up, than 1,5 feet down of the leach pipes.(any time)
U must have a lisence to do the digging/mounting of the system too.
And a engineer exam to design the system.
And a aproval from the community before u start.

Conclusion:
You and your engineer is in trouble.(after our Norwegian rules)

 

[BIGDAN315]

Ok. That clarifies the question.

I'm no lawyer either, but now it seems as if you have some more of the burden here than if the owner had hired the engineer. Now, instead of being able to refer the owner's problem back to his engineer, you have to refer the problem back to your engineer.

What has your engineer had to say about this? (He kinda helped you get into this problem. It seems reasonable to expect him to help you out of it.)

He said "Boy it should of worked" and I said :beatsme. I asked if a curtain drain would take away any ground water leaching into the system. He said ya maybe he should of disigned one in...:Banghead. Ok now who has to pay for it?? Should the home owner pay for it ? because if it where disigned into it from the beginning it would of been included in the cost. I will probably install it out my pocket just to make the home owner happy and the monkey off my back..:usa

 

[Steve Frazier]

Is this a licensed engineer you're working with? Are you required to have the system inspected before it's covered? This isn't sounding at all like what we go through to design and install a system. I'll have more comments later, pressed for time at the moment, but if you built to the design of a licensed engineer, I don't see where you are liable for the shortfall.

 

[BIGDAN315]

Is this a licensed engineer you're working with? Are you required to have the system inspected before it's covered? This isn't sounding at all like what we go through to design and install a system. I'll have more comments later, pressed for time at the moment, but if you built to the design of a licensed engineer, I don't see where you are liable for the shortfall.

Yes a Licensed engineer and stamped drawings which where aproved by the towns code inforcement. The system was also inspected by the code officer. I agree with your last statement as well Steve.

 

[Alan Mesmer]

In my opinion, although the engineer and/or soil evaluator was originally responsible for the lack of considering ground water run -off flooding the system, you the installer, are ultimately going to see the most grief from the resulting situation.
As an septic installer, I know what pitfalls usually can surface and many times know what will work and what will not. If I am not comfortable with a design recommendation I address potential problems before they can surface after construction. In this situation a perimeter drain may prevent surface water saturation of the system.
All this aside, as I said before, you are going to see the most grief from this situation. Your name will get tarnished not the design engineer and as such you must make things right at your cost. A similar situation happened to a contractor in my area and the homeowner was given a price of $1800 for the addition of a perimeter drain. They paid to have it done and after completion they told every one they knew, the name of the contractor who did their system, and how they came back and charged them more money to make it work as it was originally supposed to work. If I was this contractor I would have done it for no additional cost to the H.O. to keep my reputation rather than try to make a buck on a repair(Material cost for perimeter drain <$400)! I have since done two other jobs for this particular homeowner that surely would have gone to the original contractor if the charge for the repair would not have occured.
Another local contractor was recently drug through the mud because a newer system failed. The BBB was notified, he dug his feet in for a fight, and a lawsuit was initiated and ultimately the contractor lost even though it was built as spec'd and passed final inspections. His insurance company talked him into settling and paid the H.O. to have a new system installed instead of dragging it out a long time in the court system. I'm sure that he has ultimately paid much more in his premiums. Im also sure that his business has suffered from all of the bad publicity.
Good luck
Alan

 

[Kgmz]

When did you install this system?

Was there any water present when you dug the ditches for the laterals?

How close is the drain field to the swale and bank?


As a certified septic installer in Pierce County, WA and the state of Oregon. According to the rules and laws it is my responsibility to question the engineer/designer and stop work if I see something that may not work, such as high water table, drain field to close below or above a slope/bank, poor soils, etc. etc. Then the engineer comes to the site to verify and comes up with a solution.

Now you may have learned a lesson here. Next time let the homeowner hire the engineer and pay for his service. That way it falls back to the homeowner to deal with the engineer. You may suggest a engineer, but this still may come back and bite you since you suggested him/her.

Around here there are good and bad licensed septic designers/engineers. And through the years I have learned which are good or bad. Only about 25% are excellent, the next 25% are OK, and the rest are just a pain for one reason or the other.

The only time we hire the engineer/designer is for our own projects like spec homes, etc. And if someone asks for a recommendation there is only 1 or 2 people I will suggest out of the hundreds.



I have seen some bad designs where I think the engineer just walked around the site and guessed on the topography, and then I come out and the site doesn't look at all like the design. Then I have seen another engineer that comes out to the site with a robotic total station and checks the site and the design is perfect. This same designer brings out the total station after I have installed it to check that everything is where it is supposed to be and then pops the info into his computer and prints the as-built.

 

[BIGDAN315]

When did you install this system?

Was there any water present when you dug the ditches for the laterals?

How close is the drain field to the swale and bank?


As a certified septic installer in Pierce County, WA and the state of Oregon. According to the rules and laws it is my responsibility to question the engineer/designer and stop work if I see something that may not work, such as high water table, drain field to close below or above a slope/bank, poor soils, etc. etc. Then the engineer comes to the site to verify and comes up with a solution.

Now you may have learned a lesson here. Next time let the homeowner hire the engineer and pay for his service. That way it falls back to the homeowner to deal with the engineer. You may suggest a engineer, but this still may come back and bite you since you suggested him/her.

Around here there are good and bad licensed septic designers/engineers. And through the years I have learned which are good or bad. Only about 25% are excellent, the next 25% are OK, and the rest are just a pain for one reason or the other.

The only time we hire the engineer/designer is for our own projects like spec homes, etc. And if someone asks for a recommendation there is only 1 or 2 people I will suggest out of the hundreds.



I have seen some bad designs where I think the engineer just walked around the site and guessed on the topography, and then I come out and the site doesn't look at all like the design. Then I have seen another engineer that comes out to the site with a robotic total station and checks the site and the design is perfect. This same designer brings out the total station after I have installed it to check that everything is where it is supposed to be and then pops the info into his computer and prints the as-built.

Thanks for your input. sounds like I'me screwed...

 

[MKTEF]

Thanks every one!:drinkup:drinkup

This was a interresting topic to discuss.
After the posts read here, u got the exact same prosedure as we got over here.
Only difference is, u all know the right english words for everything that i don't know..

And i made my exam as a qualified septic and pipe installer today, feels like i passed...

 

[GaryKelley]

An interesting aside here. I installed a new septic system and leach field for a "country store" 30 miles out of town last spring. All went well, as well as the might go when you are trying to dig in ancient creekbed stratas. I ahd to make a few adjustments, as there were undocumented sewer attachments not ID'd at the start. Anyway, I got it all done, finally got paid all the money. Then 4 weeks later, the store burned to the ground as a result of a fualty electric heater....so far, no plans to rebuild....

 

[dayexco]

Yes the engineer desigened it and I built it per plan. The engineer was hired by me to desigened it.

engineers typically carry "errors and ommisions" insurance, tell him that you need to collect on it to correct his problem.

 

[BIGDAN315]

engineers typically carry "errors and ommisions" insurance, tell him that you need to collect on it to correct his problem.

finally some one who is on my side....:drinkup

 

[xcavate]

I have heard of the errors and omissions insurance policy too. I think its a requirement in massachusetts for an engineering firm to have it

 

[dayexco]

finally some one who is on my side....:drinkup

"IF".....you built per his design, he inspected and accepted. good luck

 

[tuney443]

"IF".....you built per his design, he inspected and accepted. good luck

EXACTLY--and something else that I didn't see brought up is what does the gov't authority for inspecting SDS's around you say about this fiasco?I would fight this tooth and nails if I were you--that engineer is definitely at fault and you might need to hire a pit bull of a lawyer if he still doesn't get it after you explain this to him.I despise engineers like that. My Dad always used to say that before an engineer designs his first job,he should have some serious seat time on a backhoe to teach him some things that college didn't.

 

[BIGDAN315]

EXACTLY--and something else that I didn't see brought up is what does the gov't authority for inspecting SDS's around you say about this fiasco?I would fight this tooth and nails if I were you--that engineer is definitely at fault and you might need to hire a pit bull of a lawyer if he still doesn't get it after you explain this to him.I despise engineers like that. My Dad always used to say that before an engineer designs his first job,he should have some serious seat time on a backhoe to teach him some things that college didn't.

Thats what I thought. I have lost all confidence in this engineer. I have also herd how some of these guys get there degrees...:ban

Thanks guys

 

[PipeGuy]

I understand that it seems the engineer is at fault but is it really worth hiring a lawyer and taking a risk in losing and then having the cost of the lawyer also. IMHO I would fix the project so it works and make sure the H.O. is aware of the situation and you will most likely get much more work due to the fact that you took care of you customers