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New Pond location

Discussion in 'Agricultural Operations' started by Mud Dauber, Jul 19, 2018.

  1. Mud Dauber

    Mud Dauber Member

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    Where can I read online, books about correct pond location as far as the lay of the land. I have 400 acres in NE Missouri that have old silted in ponds and now with the dry weather were having these ponds will soon be dry and will have to switch to rural water for the Cows.

    I want to build a 10 +/- acre pond and a piping system with a pump and tire tanks that I can pump from and remove these old mud puddle ponds.

    I have all the equipment for the job, just missing the technical end to get started. NO nrcs, fsa, dnr, cost share on this farm!!!!!

    Local pond builders are out a few years on pond cleaning and new construction and don't even care to come look.

    TIA, Dave
     
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  2. d9gdon

    d9gdon Senior Member

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    You get the most bang for your buck by building an impound lake in a valley instead of digging a hole in the ground somewhere. It makes you move less dirt.

    You don't want NRCS involved and you don't have to get them involved. That doesn't mean that they haven't plowed this field before.

    Here is some very good information from them, and you don't have to even talk to them:

    https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs144p2_030362.pdf

    Like an old timer told me, now you can screw it up all by yourself.
     
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  3. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Great point Don !

    Even if your not doing " cost share " on a project NRCS will still come out to the site and help shoot grade & offer advice at no cost . That's why we have them .

    Yeah Mud Dauber , 10 acre lake is a pretty good size body of water .

    On a 400 acre tract of pasture ground we would look in to installing 3 or 4 one acre size ponds depending on how the property lays .

    That way a feller can look in to rotational grazing & always have a pond close buy with a gravity fed water system .

    I like the tire " tire tank " idea . Buddy has one made out of an old scraper tire cut in half & filled the bottom with concrete . He feeds it with a Dempster windmill . Pretty cool setup .
     
  4. d9gdon

    d9gdon Senior Member

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    Yeah, you can make a water trough out of a scraper tire and just use a bunch of bentonite in the bottom and it will seal up. That's how we do it, but we have black gumbo.
     
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  5. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Don't overlook rehabbing the old ponds . In the big picture that may be a cost effective option if they are already in a good location .

    We get in on some of that action .

    https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/pond-pipe.71991/#post-751223

    Hire some nut with a dragline to hog out the cattails & mud .

    https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/threads/insley-k12.72300/#post-755988
     
  6. Jonas302

    Jonas302 Senior Member

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  7. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    And don't forget whatever ya decide on ……… It has to " Cash Flow " with the operation .

    Under spec it the cows won't be happy .

    Over do it you won't be happy with the cost .

    Find the middle ground where it works for everyone .;):D
     
  8. gwhammy

    gwhammy Well-Known Member

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    What part of ne mo.? Cleaning old ponds out isn't the best job but you can get a good pond for half or less of a new pond. I do several every year around hear, they are all different.

    As far as a new pond or lake they usually run from 4 to 10,000 dollars a acre depending on area they are built. I've done acre ponds that cost 10,000 with a thee sided dam. Did a couple of real big lakes that were in the lowest price range even with the brush removal.

    Also depends on the quality of the dam. Nice one with 3 to 1 back slope or less means a lot more dirt but real easy to maintain.

    Depending on where in ne mo. you are we might be interested in looking at the work. I'm right on Mark Twain Lake.
     
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  9. Mud Dauber

    Mud Dauber Member

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    Farm is located 25 miles south of Kirksville in Linn County.
     
  10. Mud Dauber

    Mud Dauber Member

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    Well I just returned from the Missouri farm yesterday and I'm the only one in the area that has grass but no water.

    I did do some crude/fast survey work yesterday morning before I left and looks to me like about a 20 acre impound pond with a 30 foot tall dam, again this is crude farmer survey work via handheld GPS but gave a idea the size and visual. I set flags in the draws and the noses to the same elevation as the two ridges I want to connect. In this location it can be seen from the house and close to run electric to for the pump.

    I did read through d9gdon link to NRCS pamphlet (Thank You) but all those facts and figures are over my head.

    Many Thanks for your thoughts.
     
  11. d9gdon

    d9gdon Senior Member

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    The math in that pamphlet is just so you can figure out how many yards of dirt that you have to move to dig the core and build the dam.

    Nowadays, most engineering(survey) firms have GPS instruments and can stake off the dam for you at a very reasonable cost and tell you the yardage. From my desk here, I'd say your dam would be around 30 thousand cubic yards but you didn't say how long the dam would be, I'm guessing 400 feet with 3:1 slopes and a 14' wide top. That is a guess, I didn't do any math.

    Get some soil samples to make sure what you're building it out of will hold water.

    Private message sent.
     
  12. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Yeah Mud Dauber , 20 acre lake is a pretty good size body of water with a 30 foot dam farm pond .

    I would still suggest contacting NRCS office anyhow as they could direct ya to the next state office for possible " permits " & regulations on a water project of that scope .



    In my area it go's buy how tall the dam is & acres involved in the project .

    Just a thought .
     
  13. gwhammy

    gwhammy Well-Known Member

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    Past a certain depth of water they are required to be corp of engineers inspected. You DO NOT want to get into that area.

    Gov. average paid here is around 2.50 a yard I think on the last ponds we did. Might be cheaper or higher depending on lay of the land. Is there any rock ledges or creek bottoms on rock on this land?

    Big lake last spring was 18 acres but the dam was around 25 foot tall and 600 foot long. It was great spot to build. I think it has around 20,000 yards in it. A very small portion of the dam was at full depth, maybe a hundred feet or so. No state permits if you stay under a certain depth and no roads or people living close behind it as far as I know.
     
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  14. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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  15. earthscratcher

    earthscratcher Well-Known Member

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    maybe its different in other states, but was told in southern iowa anything with a dam higher then 27ft or a pond of one acre of pool, needs to be a engineered dam. which opens up a big can of worms with the army corp of engineers. what is it like in other states??
     
  16. gwhammy

    gwhammy Well-Known Member

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    As best as I can tell reading dnr's website agriculture dams of less than 35 foot in height are not regulated. It also depends on roads and structures down stream from the dam.
    3 to 1 slope on both sides minimum but we prefer to have 4 to 1 on the back slope for mowing and maintaining works best. It all depends on the area being built in.
     
  17. North Texan

    North Texan Well-Known Member

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    I would suggest starting with the NRCS. Get them to come out, look, survey, and make recommendations. Still doesn't cost you anything. They can give you a pretty good idea of what you can do and what you can't do.

    A 20 acre impoundment takes a lot of engineering to do right. Build it without engineering it properly, and then you may get a heavy rain event that causes a failure. Then you are responsible for that water and everything it destroys. A 30' dam failing results in a 30' wall of water going downstream. Not something to take lightly.
     
  18. gwhammy

    gwhammy Well-Known Member

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    I don't see a 30 foot tall dam failing in the clay we have here. 30 foot tall dam with 3 to 1 slopes and a 12 foot wide top is 192 foot thick at the base.

    A lot matters as to acres drained to pool size and type of soil. Some places do require an engineered dam. Size of drain pipe and emergency spillway as well as amount of free board all play into design as well as amount of spread acres the lake has.

    A deep gully needs different free board and drain system than a lake that spreads to half again it's size to control big rains.

    We had a 5 inch rain on a 18 acre lake that drains 250 acres with no problem. Went out the emergency spillway maybe 18 inches deep for a few hours. You don't want a spillway that has water standing on it all the time, these will cut out faster than a dry spillway with a good stand of grass. Also the emergency spillway is always cut into virgin soil which helps control scalping it and diverted on the lower part so it won't cut the base of the dam out.

    I agree you have to take a lot into consideration when building a lake or pond but common sense and experience goes a long way.
     
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