New CAT D6

[pafarmer]

Looking at trading in my two 2004 D6 tractors on a brand new machine. Anyone out there own one of the new CAT D6 tractors that can comment on the likes and dislikes on them. I would be getting a full cab , full forestry machine with guards, winch, sweeps, LGP, etc....my old D6's and still going strong but I wanted to upgrade prior to replacing the undercarriages on both and my CAT dealer told me a rebuild of the motors on both is only a couple of k hours away....all thoughts welcome on going new or running my old tractors straight into the ground....I seem to always struggle at this point in my equipment s life.
I can keep going until my current machines are worth nothing or trade them while they still have decent value. I have done it both ways but really can't say what option is best....I have zero experience on the new machines...

 

[Nige]

I have no experience of the new D6s (especially with all the TIER 4 crap that they have on them nowadays) but you need to ask youself this IMO. How many hours do your existing tractors have on them and how much would you have to invest in them to bring them up to snuff in the medium-to-long term (undercarriage + engine/other component rebuilds at the very least by the sound of it) and how would expending that amount of cash compare with the cost of buying new minus whatever trade-in you go for the existing machines..? Would that make economic sense..? Are there any other factors to take into account such as getting credit for emission upgrades when doing public works contracts that might sway the calculation one way or another..?

To give you an idea we set the life of our large tractors at 80,000+ hours until disposal and had them rebuilt literally ad infinitum provided the chassis was still good and crack free because everything else is a bolt-on.

Another thought. Does Cat have a Certified Rebuild program for your existing D6 model..? A CCR would effectively give you a new machine (with new S/N) complete with a new machine warranty for about 60-65% of the current cost of buying the latest model of the same machine new.

 

[pafarmer]

Thank you very much Nige. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to give me your in sight. You have given me allot to think about. It's a big deal for me involving a enough hard earned cash to make me stop , take a long deep breath and hope someone like yourself can offer a solid platform to make my call from. Thank you again Sir for taking the time to offer your knowledge. I appreciate it....thank you.
I'll let you know I decide. I like the sounds of the CCR program. The new tier 4 crap scares me a bit if I'm honest...

Farmer..

 

[kevin37b]

My wife works at a large sand pit . They had Altorfer rebuild there big loader for half the money of a new machine . Total strip ,. engine , trans , axles , . Half the price of new . 250,000$

 

[Nige]

I fail to understand why owners look to replace equipment just because it's getting to the point where components need rebuilding. When you think about it so long as the chassis & structures which are the really expensive parts of the machine are in good order then everything else is either a bolt-on part or is a rebuildable component.

Check this out, especially Page 10 where it lists the models to which the program applies ......... https://caterpillar.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C10505781

Just to make it clear the Certified Rebuild (CCR) program gives a new Serial Number and a new machine warranty. The Certified Power Train (CPT) Rebuild also gets a warranty but not the same as a new machine and original Serial number is retained.

 

[big ben]

What D6 are we talking about trading/repairing and/or buying

D6k, D6N or D6R/T ?

 

[pafarmer]

I am looking at purchasing a brand new CAT D6K2. Full forestry package tractor, LGP, sweeps, winch etc....and am attempting weigh the advantages of a full CCR on both of my 2094 tractors equipped the same as I would the new tractor.The decision is now to trade the two I presently own today while they still have value or simply do a complete CCR as Nige suggests on those two I have and forgo the purchase of a new tractor all together...My 2004 tractors are due for complete undercarriage replacement and are within a few K hours from a complete motor overhaul/rebuild. I always struggle at this point in my equipment s life on which way to go. I have actually done both in the past and either way has its pluses and minuses. I have not operated the current D6 tier machines and was wondering if any users here could comment on what they think of the new D6 tractors. 2004 to 2016 is a pretty good chunk of time do I am sure things have improved from what I have run for the last 12 years or do. Neither of my two machines owe me anything, they have been paid for for many years and have provided me with very dependable trouble ownership. I am very pleased with them and would expect nothing less from CAT current offering but it's always a good idea to poll sone alternate opinions. Nige has offered me do great ideas on how he would look at it and his thoughts which has already helped me greatly as I have asked my dealer to put a number on two compleye CCR on my current machines, honestly an option I didn't even consider until he made mention of it...Dome really talented men here with solid advise ...pkease feel free to offer your thoughts as I am open yo all discussion on the matter. Thanks in advance for your time.

Farmer

 

[d9gdon]

One other thing to look at is the tax ramifications of the deal. They have the laws written now to reward buying new by offering accelerated depreciation which helps to offset what you pay in income taxes. On the CCR, you would need to capitalize those costs and depreciate it normally.

That is still not a deal killer, it all depends on your personal tax situation which you can run by your tax preparer to explain in more detail.

Personally I'd look into the CCR since the tractors have no debt. At the same time, I'd make sure these tractors didn't have an inherent weakness with them before I did it. What I mean by that is a known defect like the HEUI pump system that did not have the best reputation.

Sounds like they gave good service since new though, so probably not relevant in this case.

 

[Birken Vogt]

From engine experience more than anything, I agree with the above that Tier 4 is really as bad as they say and to stay away from it if you can. Maintenance and repair are much more expensive and they do not have the emissions components built for the long life you expect from this type of machinery.

One additional point I would like to stress is that most Tier 4 products use substantially more fuel than comparable past models so there is another additional expense.

The certified rebuild sounds like a good option if you are looking to spend real money, or if it makes economic sense to just do repairs as necessary.

Maybe they will figure out a better way to do the low emissions stuff in the future but they have been attempting it for 8 years plus now and it does not seem to be getting any better.

 

[DARO]

The Tier 4 cat machines are still far from trouble free. Before makeing a choice I would recommend going to a class on tier 4. The Tier 4 stuff is going to change how mechine s are maintained in the future. They are not budget busters yet but I haven't seen any with much over 10000 hours. We like to get 25000 to 30000 hours on a 6 size dozer.

 

[Dickjr.]

What D6 do you have now , N or R? How many hours on them. If you have a couple thousand ours a piece left why not run them. If they were maintained why would you worry about them. Has the u/c been measured. I've never seen a tractor loose an engine , u/c and trans at the same time.

 

[Nige]

I've never seen a tractor loose an engine , u/c and trans at the same time.

Agreed, but if the owner knows it needs attention to all those components why not take the machine right down to the frame and start again all at one hit..? If the business cash flow depends on a machine or fleet of machines being reliable then doing all the needed work at one time could pay dividends.

the time needed to do a CCR also needs factoring in to the equation. Can you afford to do without a machine for the time it takes to do the overhaul which would probably be about 4-6 weeks depending on the dealer..?

 

[Oxbow]

Agreed, but if the owner knows it needs attention to all those components why not take the machine right down to the frame and start again all at one hit..? If the business cash flow depends on a machine or fleet of machines being reliable then doing all the needed work at one time could pay dividends.

the time needed to do a CCR also needs factoring in to the equation. Can you afford to do without a machine for the time it takes to do the overhaul which would probably be about 4-6 weeks depending on the dealer..?

Perhaps a rental should be calculated in to the CCR cost for the duration of the rebuild.

 

[Nige]

Or better still a loaner from the dealer's rental fleet for a good customer shouldn't be out of the question either.

 

[JS300]

Nige, did you say 80,000 hrs? How many years would it take to put that many hours on a machine and what type of equipment are you referring to? I've always wondered what happens with bigger equipment and how long it can last. Also how many hours would you say before doing a CAT CCR?

 

[Nige]

80k hours for tracked equipment, 120k hours for trucks. At around 7k hours per year (24/7/365) that would equate to about 11-12 years for the former and 16-18 years for the latter.

How many hours before a CCR is the $64,000 question. We would probably look at a CPT rebuild at the end of 1st & 2nd life and maybe even 3rd life, then a CCR after that. Then repeat the process up to total operating life of the machine. It all depends how the hours between rebuilds divide into the total operating life of the machine. We were rebuilding D9s at 12-13k hours and D10s at around 15-16k. On a smaller model a CCR might come earlier in the life of the machine relatively-speaking.

To the OP. Ask your dealer to price you a Certified Power Train (CPT) rebuild in addition to a CCR and see how the costs stack up between the two.

 

[Shimmy1]

How many hours on these "almost time to rebuild engines"? Are they using oil? Has Cat done a blow-by test? How about oil samples, what do they say? If you are showing elevated levels of lead/tin and copper, maybe a set of bearings is in order. As good of a relationship as a customer may think they have with their dealer, my opinion is the dealer is ALWAYS going to have Mother Cat's best interest in mind. Frankly, to make a statement that your engine has 2000 hrs left either means it's literally falling apart as we speak, or they have no idea and are basing their claim on the law of averages. It's your machine. You should have the best idea about the shape it's in.

 

[JS300]

Nige, that's interesting stuff. I wonder if more company's will start refurbing old equipment now that the tier4 stuff is everywhere. I traded my farm tractor last year and while I got pretty much the exact same tractor the new one is a tier 4 machine. Not the end of the world but can be a pain at times, definitely uses more fuel, and I'm sure up keep cost will be higher.
I think if I was the OP I would rent a new machine for a week or two to see if there was any real difference in performance and then look at the bottom line between new, used, and CCR. It's crazy how much equipment cost have gone up in the last 5 years.

 

[John C.]

I haven't seen anyone rebuild anything smaller than a D9 for years. The old rule was that the cost of a total rebuild should be no more than sixty five percent of a new machine and you should get at least sixty five percent of the life of a new machine. The reality is that the cost of labor is about the same for a D6 as it is for a D9. The other issue is the warranty costs and time period. You usually won't get the new machine warranty with the rebuild. The other thought is are they rebuilding your major components are installing reman components from the factory. I've had my head aches plenty with reman engines and transmissions. The scheduling also come to mind. I haven't seen a rebuild go on the truck back to the job on time for years. It always takes longer and costs more than the initial estimate.

What I have looked at in the past was the kind of operation you are running. Mining pays to have a rebuild program because you generally work twenty four/seven and hours accumulate like flood water. You have big shops with lots of personnel and enough spare machines to take of the slack of a downed one for a major. Some construction programs might be close to that but most can stand some down time if a machine has a hiccup. Most of the forestry people run real thin nowadays and can't take much down time so a lot of them run new for the most part. I would take a look at your utilization on your current machines as part of your decision. Do they work 40 a week and 52 weeks a year? Do you have to two shift? How much do they sit without a job to charge against? If one goes down what are the other charges you would have to pay, crew go home, penalties for late completion and so on.

The Tier 4 stuff is here to stay and everyone is going to have to get used to it. I know some that have used a cleaner fleet as a lever to win a thin contract or two. You haven't said how old your machines are but at some point we are going to be told that if your machine doesn't meet standards for emissions you are not going to be able to use it on a commercial contract. That goes for mining, forestry, agriculture and construction.

Good Luck!

 

[Shimmy1]

You haven't said how old your machines are but at some point we are going to be told that if your machine doesn't meet standards for emissions you are not going to be able to use it on a commercial contract. That goes for mining, forestry, agriculture and construction.

John C, if it ever really comes to that, nobody is going to give a $hit anyway, because we will have become full-commie. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.