Mitsubishi 4D32 diesel power unit in CAT 307SSR

[Pants]

I hadn't been paying any attention to this until now for some reason, but there's a CAT 5I-8670X existing spin-on OF in my machine that I'm guessing is a 'kidney loop' filter for the hydraulic fluid - the type Lantraxco was describing? Would that make sense? Might this provide an option for a desiccant-type replacement filter, to simply spin on? (Or might this already BE a desiccant-containing filter?)


Also - the red-circled item (in the left shot) might/might not be where I'm supposed to bleed air from hydraulic circuit to main pump prior to starting the engine. There's an image of this plug, arrowed, in the all-Japanese operator service book, within the section covering fluid replacement, so I think that's it. Anyone know for sure?

There are also two quick-connect nipples on the pump body (one visible in same shot, with black plastic dirt-cap in place). Are those both for... pressure-testing?

Finally, the small pump at the tail end of the big pump (left end of same shot) - what does that serve?

Thanks for all the help.

Dave

 

[lantraxco]

That filter is for the pilot oil which supplies your joysticks and travel controllers, it's probably three micron? and is in the supply circuit to insure no particles big enough to jam up the tight clearances in the control plungers get through. Very little flow there, but I suppose you could use a different filter there, the caveat being the filter is "medium pressure" probably rated to 500 psi. I don't think CAT uses any dessicant filters, I may be wrong.

Yes, since when you change oil you pull the suction off the bottom of the tank, I would assume the pump is drained leaving it full of air. Since you don't want those very expensive metal pieces inside the pump making love without lube, after filling the tank I would suggest loosening that plug until all the air is gone and oil seeps out. Somebody will correct me of course if I'm hallucinating again.

Yes, the black dust covers are all covering pressure test point ready to quick couple pressure gauges on.

The little pump is what supplies the pilot pressure that passes through the safety lockout valve, through the pilot filter, and on to the controls which send oil to shift the spools in the main valves, and a short list of other important functions, like two speed travel.

 

[Nige]

Cat don't manufacture dessicant-type filters. However I personally think you're going off on a tangent here and trying to over-think things. The tank has had condensation in it, true. However replacing the tank cap and all the seals for the various covers on the tank should fix that. Once the tank is "sealed" for want of a better word the air in it is never going to change and no moisture will be able to get in or out. At that point do a complete oil drain and replace with new oil and you should be good to go.

IMHO the fact that you are using ATF as a hydraulic fluid is not helping things. ATF is too light for your climatic conditions (it's a bit less than 10 weight, you should be using something closer to 30 weight or ISO 68 viscosity) which will result in the hydraulic oil getting far hotter than it should due to the churning effect of the lighter oil. Also ATF has a tendency to absorb moisture far more than a hydraulic oil which is the last thing you need bearing in mind your current tank issues.

You also mentioned fuel tank water issues in this and other machines that you have in the damp climate of your location. The solution to this is relatively-speaking simple: -
1. Always fill fuel tanks right to the top at the end of every working day to reduce condensation.
2. If 1 is not possible install a full-flow dessicant breather in the fuel tank vent.
3. Drain any accumulated water from fuel tanks daily as opposed to weekly that the manual recommends.
4. If you have any machines that are not equipped with a combined primary fuel filter and water separator that permits draining water from the bowl below the primary filter then you should install them. The water separators should also be drained daily.

 

[Pants]

That filter is for the pilot oil which supplies your joysticks and travel controllers, it's probably three micron? and is in the supply circuit to insure no particles big enough to jam up the tight clearances in the control plungers get through. Very little flow there, but I suppose you could use a different filter there, the caveat being the filter is "medium pressure" probably rated to 500 psi. I don't think CAT uses any dessicant filters, I may be wrong.

Yes, since when you change oil you pull the suction off the bottom of the tank, I would assume the pump is drained leaving it full of air. Since you don't want those very expensive metal pieces inside the pump making love without lube, after filling the tank I would suggest loosening that plug until all the air is gone and oil seeps out. Somebody will correct me of course if I'm hallucinating again.

Yes, the black dust covers are all covering pressure test point ready to quick couple pressure gauges on.

The little pump is what supplies the pilot pressure that passes through the safety lockout valve, through the pilot filter, and on to the controls which send oil to shift the spools in the main valves, and a short list of other important functions, like two speed travel.

Lantraxco - thanks for the ongoing education & amusement. Good stuff.

--Dave

 

[Pants]

Cat don't manufacture dessicant-type filters. However I personally think you're going off on a tangent here and trying to over-think things. The tank has had condensation in it, true. However replacing the tank cap and all the seals for the various covers on the tank should fix that. Once the tank is "sealed" for want of a better word the air in it is never going to change and no moisture will be able to get in or out. At that point do a complete oil drain and replace with new oil and you should be good to go.
...

Nige,

Thanks yet again. I'm definitely prone to overthinking, sometime in tandem with 'underacting' - especially when the weather's bad and the alternative to actually doing anything is to keep on googlin.'

But I have to ask about the tank-breathing dynamics again...going into this, I'd for some simplistic reason thought the "radiator-style" pressure cap was effectively a check-valve that would keep my tank from exploding by providing a means to *vent* pressure - and only to vent. But mustn't it also provide a means for the tank to take IN air when needed, as well, so that, after a long hot day of machine use with the oil heated up and air burping out the cap regularly, when the temperature subsequently dips into freezing territory that night (OK, that never happens here, but you take my meaning), the tank doesn't buckle/collapse? (My model on this is how radiator caps work - expelling coolant when hot to the overflow tank, then taking it back in via a second spring-check). So assuming that's also the case with my cap, the occasional slug of air that the tank might have to gulp in (through that dangling hose) might indeed be very wet. So wouldn't it be true that even a factory-fresh pressure/vacuum cap, I will still be gulping in occasional wet lung-fulls of air? Maybe my assumption about the two-way valving on the cap is flawed, but it seems intuitively necessary that it work that way - else how does the tank ever take in air?

...IMHO the fact that you are using ATF as a hydraulic fluid is not helping things. ATF is too light for your climatic conditions (it's a bit less than 10 weight, you should be using something closer to 30 weight or ISO 68 viscosity) which will result in the hydraulic oil getting far hotter than it should due to the churning effect of the lighter oil. Also ATF has a tendency to absorb moisture far more than a hydraulic oil which is the last thing you need bearing in mind your current tank issues.

You also mentioned fuel tank water issues in this and other machines that you have in the damp climate of your location. The solution to this is relatively-speaking simple: -
1. Always fill fuel tanks right to the top at the end of every working day to reduce condensation.
2. If 1 is not possible install a full-flow dessicant breather in the fuel tank vent.
3. Drain any accumulated water from fuel tanks daily as opposed to weekly that the manual recommends.
4. If you have any machines that are not equipped with a combined primary fuel filter and water separator that permits draining water from the bowl below the primary filter then you should install them. The water separators should also be drained daily.

re: replacing fluid - is just "ISO68" an adequate specification? Any concerns about brands? Any hot tips on sources?

re: (4) - definitely... in the wake of my recent IP rebuild for this machine, I bought a bunch of new twin-filter "CAV-style" fuel-filter heads, apparently well known to Ford tractor users. For some reason, they came with no tech data, and seller hasn't been able to provide any yet, either, but indicated that they'd just 'drop in' where the old one had been, so not a lot of thought would normally be needed. One side has a glass bowl, the other an aluminum bowl. I'd assumed when I ordered them that the design of these was to filter the fuel in series, but they're actually made to work in parallel, which seems less than optimal, esp since there's only one glass bowl & drain. There are four ports with arrows in/out, numbered 1-4, but it's clear from looking into the drillings that the "clean" fuel is common to one long passage, and similarly the 'dirty' fuel is commingled by design. I actually went to the trouble to modify one such that it works in series, with the glass bowl side being the primary filtration, and it's ready for use on the CAT now. Others will go on other machines/truck/whatever soon. Do you happen to know about the parallel/series-flow concern there? Maybe these are for some reason intended to be essentially one large filter, not two stages?

I much appreciate all the assistance & details on other issues not mentioned in my reply...working on implementing.

Thanks again -

Dave

 

[Nige]

Regarding your tank, the answer is no, the cap isn't designed to allow air in, only to vent pressure out if it exceeds the rating of the cap. If the cap is in good condition, the seal is OK, and it is relieving at the correct pressure the internal tank pressure generated by the heat from the oil will never be enough to lift the cap so it won't ever "burp". Remember we're only talking of pressures inside the tank at most maybe 2-3psi here, the cap is probably rated for possibly as much as 10psi. The idea is that the tank is sealed once you install the cap - which is why it is important to have the level correct when you put the cap on. The whole idea of the cap is not to let air in from the outside, therefore if there is anywhere else for air to get in such as a leaking sight glass (while I think about it, replace all the o-rings in the sight glass) or the cover for the filter due to a bad o-ring say, you're defeating the whole idea.

Regarding your hydraulic oil specification. You need a good-quality hydraulic oil from one of the major suppliers like Shell, Mobil, Chevron, etc, that is of a viscosity around SAE30 or ISO 68 That's the same viscosity BTW, just measured on different scales. I prefer not to buy from Joe Blow's Gas & Groceries .......
The oil container may be marked as meeting one or more of the following standards: -
Denison HF-0
Vickers I-286-S
Vickers M-2950-S
DIN 51524 HLP
ISO 11158 Type HM

 

[lantraxco]

As usual, I defer to Nige's more sensible approach, he's laid out the correct course of action for you. I always overthink things, apologies, lol

 

[Pants]

OK, thanks guys.

Nige, do the tank-related part numbers I scanned from that Japanese-language parts book "work?" At least some - the seven-digit ones - look like Mitsubishi p/ns, from my previous chases.

The pressure-relief cap is E55701500, which seems unknown to Google...but I think I can come up with other items (mostly o-rings) locally or by mail once I have the sizes.

As to hydraulic oil - AW 68, from what I gather, just means "anti-wear" & meets ISO 68. AW 68 seems relatively affordable here for some reason. Does that meet your recommendation?

Mahalo...

Dave

 

[Nige]

The pressure cap E55701500 also comes up a blank with me unfortunately. All I can suggest is that you try to match it physically with something at a local motor factor. Either that or try the Cat dealer in your area who may have access to some cross-references that I don't.

All the o-rings with Part Numbers like 095-xxxx are Cat Part Numbers that also appear on the US systems and are all easily obtainable from Cat.

Regarding the oil, AW68 ought to fill the bill. Just make sure that it also meets at least one of the other specifications I listed above in post #126.

 

[Pants]

I went back into old emails re: gray-market parts for CAT & found very helpful info from a parts woman on the US mainland - she said "...put in the Mitsubishi part number and part type 84 (code for mitsubishi) it should cross to the caterpillar number..."

I just tried this with local CAT parts counter & it seems to have worked, to their surprise...they came up with p/n 094-1415. At $42, I really HOPE my old cap is leaking...

 

[lantraxco]

84 is the code, lol... MHI= Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Tried to convince a young parts lad at my former employer he could cross Mitsubishi numbers, he flatly told me I was wrong.... called back and asked for one of my former workmates, we had a laugh... two old farts laughing at the young kid, just like we used to be.

Well done!

 

[Nige]

094-1415 comes up as a hydraulic tank cap used on the Mitsubishi-manufactured E-series of hydraulic excavators, so I'd say you are on the right lines. Your dealer's price is a bit dodgy though, I show the price as $27.

 

[Pants]

094-1415 comes up as a hydraulic tank cap used on the Mitsubishi-manufactured E-series of hydraulic excavators, so I'd say you are on the right lines. Your dealer's price is a bit dodgy though, I show the price as $27.

SOLD!

(seriously, if there's a way to buy from your sources...local CAT parts would have to get this from California anyway, and then I'd spend $10 in fuel to drive to their ugly-industrial-town location to get it. It's all part of the Paradise Tax we pay, for the privilege of...near-the-top cost-of-living in the USA? OK, things are warm here, and green, but...)

LMK if there's a way to order - PM?

Mahalo - Dave

 

[lantraxco]

And just to beat a dead horse a bit more :deadhorse

http://www.oiln2.com/

I think these kind of encompass all the good ideas thrown around here for hyd tank venting? LOL

 

[Pants]

Wow...if I just saw the photo of those tanks, I'd have guessed that they were prototype space-burial capsules being sold by SpaceX...

So those guys already stole my idea, just in the space of a day or two? Dang it!

--Dave

 

[SeanO]

I have a 307B machine with the same IP. I pulled it to have it repaired and now i need to reinstall. What is the procedure for this pump? literature for this machine has been difficult to come by. I have parts book, and basic service/operation, but have been unable to find service manuals.

 

[lantraxco]

See if this works, the manual may be older than your engine:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ozs6lp2vezdfw7h/Fuso 4D3 95 Shop Manual.pdf?dl=0

 

[Pants]

I have a 307B machine with the same IP. I pulled it to have it repaired and now i need to reinstall. What is the procedure for this pump? literature for this machine has been difficult to come by. I have parts book, and basic service/operation, but have been unable to find service manuals.

I'll be interested to hear how it goes for you. My machine is eternally awaiting my time to complete the refitting; IP has been rebuilt and back in place for months, but other problems made themselves apparent before I'd gotten around to restarting it (hydraulic fluid is about as drained as it can get now).

--Dave

 

[SeanO]

Thank you lantraxco It looks like that is the info i need!!

 

[lantraxco]

Glad it helped!