Mini Excavator, Cat 304CR, 304.5, or 303.5?

[CascadeScaper]

Hey guys. Well my dad said that if we can line up enough work for an excavator on our landscape installs this summer he might loook at getting one. So I've taken the liberty of finding some machines through our local dealers on Catused.com. We are a landscaping contractor looking for an excavator that can place retaining walls and do alot of "odd" jobs. In landscaping, as well as any other construction work, we never know what we're going to get into. But I can see us using one for our installs and possibly doing contract work for larger companies needing smaller equipment. We have a Cat 216 skid steer and I'd really like to stay with Cat, our dealer support is superb and buying a machine that is a certified used piece is definately a plus, I don't want to be wrenching on equipment all the time, I'm only 18 and I'm far from a diesel mechanic. So, here's a couple concerns that I have. We need a thumb for sure and preferably a long stick, if the machine does not have a thumb can a bracket be welded onto the stick to install a thumb or does it require an entirely new stick? Also, I don't think we'll ever NEED a cab, but what is everyone's opinion on cabs for these small machines? Every time I rent a larger machine (312 or so) I always open the door and roll up the glass in front, I hate looking through glass, it just hinders the visibility. I would only get a cab on these smaller machines if I could roll up the glass in front as well. We work in the summer 90% of the time, we don't work in the winter much. Now I've found a couple 303.5's and 304.5's, is the zero house swing really necessary? I can get a 303.5 w/ aux hyd. and a hyd. thumb for ALOT cheaper than I could a 304CR and the machine size is more or less the same. I have been in places where the zero house swing is very important but we have a large crew and if I can't get in to get the job done with the excavator we'll do it by hand. So, with that in mind, I'd like some opinions! What do you guys think? Thanks!

 

[BKrois]

Look at all the specs of each machine as far as operating weight, digging depths, etc. You need to figure out which machine suits your needs better. The zero tail swing is nice when working close to houses or along walls or tight areas. Cabs are nice, but if you're primarily working in the summer as you say i can't see needing one. Cabs are probably nice in the spring/fall whens its a little chilly and you can just turn the heat on, but additional clothes would also do the trick.

You can buy thumbs made for mini excavators and just weld them on, you can find thumbs for mini's for usually around $300-600.

 

[CEwriter]

Here are a few specs, courtesy of www.spec-check.com (where they keep specs for non-current models).

One thing I notice is that the 304CR generates more than 40% better bucket breakout force than the 303.5, and outweighs the 303.5 by nearly 30 percent. Just looking at the specs suggests that if you can get a decent deal on a 304.5, it should be capable of a whole lot more than the 303.5. That could be worth a lot if, with this investment, you're thinking about expanding your companies' capabilities rather than just automating the stuff you're doing now with labor.

Of course, the lightest of these options (the 303.5) outweighs your 216 skid steer loader by more than 2,000 pounds. The 304.5 goes 4,400 pounds heavier. Do you have something to haul the excavators with?

Just my .02

L

 

[kamerad47]

You don't need one of these machines if you have a large crew!! The whole idea of these machines is to stop digging by hand!

 

[CascadeScaper]

We're trying to keep from having to hire MORE crew members to keep up with our work load. At the rate we're going, we will need 2 more by next year, we already have a 5 man crew, we don't want to have to run 2 crews. Been looking at Kubotas as well, found that Cat's are a touch out of our price range for the most part. Will keep posted.

 

[DKinWA]

There's a big difference between the 303 and 304, so I'd try them both before you bought either one. I can't recommend one over the other since it really depends on what you plan to do with it. If you want to make money with it, I'd buy one already set up with a hydraulic thumb. It can be an expensive add on, but it's a lot faster and more efficient than a mechanical thumb. A mechanical thumb will work, but I find myself running the thumb as much as any other control. The only exception is when I'm digging and not doing anything else.

 

[CascadeScaper]

Well dad has changed his plans today. Dealer called us and said that a rental fleet 304CR with 600-800 hours would be about $38,000 or so with a hyd. thumb, mechanical Q/C, and canopy. Dad says that our sales guy told him that a new 304CR would be $45,000 w/ a hyd thumb, mech, Q/C, and canopy. Dad figures now that $7,000 more for a new machine and a warranty is probably worth it, especially since the used ones are out of the rental fleet. Now he thinks he wants to buy a new 304CR because we got 2 more calls today for installs, business around here is going nuts. If we get this machine I would like the dealer to move the thumb control from the floor up to the right joystick where it should be. I'd also like to get a suspension seat to go with it. I'm planning on making these "haggle" items and make them give these options to us. I think in the long run we will use this machine way more than we'll ever expect and spending the extra $$$ will be money well spent, but we're not in the excavation business and my dad doesn't want to be. I'm trying to get him to let me do a bunch of odd jobs with it this summer and pay for a good chunk of the purchase price if I can find the work because this fall I won't be here to work, I'll be at college. and he doesn't want to run around and do odd jobs with equipment, he's just too busy for that. For us to alot of work like that we'd have to hire someone to run equipment which, in our experience, never ends up very well. I will keep posted on what happens. I'm trying to get a demo machine up here in the next few days and use the sucker for a week then we'll see what happens. Oh, BTW, can anyone suggest any other attachments other than just a bucket? We won't get a breaker or hoepac or anything like that, but maybe a 36" cleanup bucket?

 

[DKinWA]

I just bought a 2005 model 304CR and it has the thumb control on the right joystick. When I first got serious about buying in 2004, converting from a foot pedal to the joystick was a fairly expensive proposition. See if your salesman will find you one already set up this way, since it's the only way to fly. As far as what attachments, I bought mine with a 24" general purpose and 53" cleanup bucket. I'm also picking up a 12" bucket tomorrow for some digging utility trenches. The next and probably last attachment will be a 48" brush rake when I get time to build it.

 

[CascadeScaper]

Well here's the scoop. Dealer called us yesterday and gave a pretty close estimate of what the price is going to be on a brand new 304CR. Everything we want/need included here's the list: Mech. Q/C, hyd. thumb, thumb control moved up to right joystick, canopy, std. stick, 24" bucket, 53" cleanup bucket, and a 2 year/2000 hr. extended warranty. Our quoted price was very reasonable in my opinion, I think we're going to go through with this option. I would like to demo the machine first before we buy anything, so early next week we'll have one up here to demo and then we'll pull the trigger on one after I demo, assuming everything goes well. DKinWA, would you trade up to a 30" digging bucket instead of a 24"? Do you ever feel the need for a bigger bucket for moving dirt faster? We're working on a landscape install right now and now we're held up on the job because the excavation contractor was supposed to show up Thursday to dig out the septic tank and make it available for repairs. Some of the excavation guys over here are kind of egotistical and have poor customer relations skills. Our customer was not even aware that the septic tank had not been worked on yet and was quite frustrated that the contractor didn't call to say that he was behind. Now my dad wants to take the 304 and dig it out and start installing septic systems. Just a question, how heavy are most of the tanks? I'm going to guess that the plastic ones that are used here are only about 800 pounds or so, that could easily be set in place with a 304 couldn't it? Also, we'd like to start doing foundation backfilling and retaining walls. With our Cat 216 skid steer and a 304 we'd be an unstoppable force here in our small town, nobody out here will have a setup like we will. Hopefully we can put this system to work in the next week or so. Thanks for everyone's help, it is much appreciated.

 

[DKinWA]

I just picked up my 12" bucket yesterday and already have a 24" and 53" cleanup bucket. It's a tough call on the 30". It's a lot dryer in Chelan than it is here, but don't you run into a lot of rocks? Your soil is typically drier than over here on the westside, so the 30" might work fine if rock isn't a problem. Considering how cheap used buckets are, I've decided to buy several so I have the right one for every job.

 

[CascadeScaper]

Alright, been a little while since I updated but here's the deal. We can't buy anything until at least the 15th of May because my dad made a large outside investment and just doesn't have the funds to risk right now in case of the closing costs costing more than expected, etc. So we're still shopping around. I think we've decided on a smaller machine than a 304CR, something more like the 303CR because we just started a job that has a 5 foot setback between houses and getting our 216 down there wasn't tough, but getting a 6.5' wide 304CR would be kind of interesting. Plus, we can haul the 303 on our tiltbed drop deck bumper pull whereas the 304 would be overweight because the trailer is only rated for 12K, so we'd have to get our gooseneck out which isn't a huge downside, just a bit of an inconvinience. We're going to demo a 303CR whenever my dad makes a call to the dealer and has him send a machine our way. Our largest concern is that we want to get the smallest machine possible to get into places such as this tight lot that we're on right now and also be able to build small rock walls. We won't ever build anything over 4 feet tall because anything over that size needs to be engineered and the county has to come out and WATCH you build the damn wall. What a bunch of crap. So, the walls we will be building will never be over 4 feet tall meaning we won't need huge rocks for the base. If we find that the 303 will not sufficiently lift the size of rock that we need it to, we will buy a bigger machine, I realize that you can't have a 5 foot wide machine with 40 HP that will lift 2500 lbs. over the side, so we'll have to compromise on size if a 303 won't lift what we need it to lift. Also looking at a Deere 35D, heard they're respectable to the 303 and will give them a look, although the Deere dealer up here does not have one at their store let alone any mini excavators at the store so who knows. I will keep posted.

 

[Tigerotor77W]

Out of curiosity, did you consider the ZTS machines from Bobcat? (430, 435) I'm not sure whether they'll be able to safely handle a 2500 pound load, but courtesy of Larry's fine service,

http://www.constructionequipment.com/hoe/ce04fa003.asp

 

[CEwriter]

What's out there

There are a few places to compare specifications on mini excavators. Below you'll find a table I pulled from what we have at ConstructionEquipment.com.

Our primary performance specification for mini excavators is bucket digging force. Since we're starting with Cat's 303CR as the baseline, I sorted all mini excavators by bucket digging force and looked at all the machines in the same range as the Cat 303CR. You wanted a machine that's about as narrow as the Cat (5' 1'' wide), so I pulled everything that's 5' 4'' or smaller, and had equivalent bucket digging force.

Note that you CAN actually get a 5' wide machine with 40 horsepower that weighs about the same as the Cat 303CR. Bobcat's 331G and 334G both qualify.

I strongly doubt that any of these machines lifts anywhere near 2,500 pounds over the side. Lift charts aren't as commonly available for mini excavators as they are for full-size machines, but the strongest (in the specs) of these machines that I found is Takeuchi's TB135. It's rated to lift 2,581 pounds over the front and 1,505 pounds over the side (at ground level with the load at a 10-foot radius). If that seems like too much machine, Takeuchi's TB125 is rated at 2,191 and 1,325 pounds over front and side.

As a point of reference, Kubota's KX91-3 is rated 1,530 and 970 pounds over front and side. Bobcat's 331 is 1,148 pounds over the front, but doesn't list lifting capacity over the side. Volvo's ECR38 is 1,345 over the front and 945 over the side. Cat doesn't offer a lift chart online.

L

 

[CascadeScaper]

CEwriter: I did keep in mind the Bobcat 331, has ALOT of horsepower. We will be keeping that machine in mind as well. I would like to demo but of course the dealer doesn't have one in the store. The Deere dealer and Bobcat dealer are kinda the same thing now, they are owned by Pape Machinery and IMO, they're really not that great. The Bobcat dealer has no machines on the lot and the deere dealership has no new machines on the lot, just a bunch of used stuff. Really lame up here, that's why we're really set on Cat and that's why our skid steer is a Cat, they have the best service around and actually have the machines that they service on the lot. I'm dissapointed with Pape and Bobcat West, they really haven't proven to us that they're going to be good service when they don't even have machines on the lot. :spaz But we are going to keep looking, I think the 304CR is our best bet, even though it won't fit down these narrow setbacks, but in the 3 years we've been in business we've only had to deal with that about 3 times now and we've been on over 25 sites so I don't think it's a huge priority, I'd rather have a machine that will lift more, load trucks faster and just all around perform on a higher level than a machine that was bought just for it's size. Like I said, machine size has only plagued us on 3 sites out of 25, not a high percentage. I'd rather buy a bigger machine that can't get into 10 percent of our sites rather than buy a small machine that won't do the rockeries we want to do. Cost is not a player here, we will be buying a new machine pretty much for sure and we want the best we can buy. Right now it's looking like Cat is going to get some more of our money but I'm still waiting to demo a 303CR and 304CR. So that's where we're at right now.

BobcatS250 - I'd love to demo a Bobcat 430ZHS, but of course the dealer up here doesn't have one and I'd highly doubt that they'd ship one across the state from another dealer for us to demo, they're really kind of dissapointing as a dealer IMO.

 

[CascadeScaper]

Today's update. Demo'd a 303CR today, dealer brought one up today for us to use for a few days. Didn't have any 304CR's, they were all on rent so early next week he thinks he'll have one. So we figured, heck, we have this machine to demo, what better way to demo and get PAID for it too. We did a little add-on work for a customer so we took the machine to a site where we've been working a couple weeks on a landscape installs and the site is pretty good sized, about an acre. It used to be old orchard and the soil itself is very rocky. So there was a bunch of rocks where the tops of them were sticking out of the dirt so I dug up all the rocks that were visible and good lord they were huge. I dug out 2500 pound rocks, couldn't pick them up, but dug them out then rolled them out of the hole and then pushed each one of them about 100 feet with the blade over to a spot where we're going to make somewhat of a rock garden. I must say that for a 7500 pound machine, the 303 was quite impressive. The whole time I was out there I was thinking "yeah, this is the machine to buy" but now that I look back it just won't lift as much as I'd like it to. We found some 800-900 pound rocks and grabbed them to see how much this thing would lift. I found out that the machine would only lift this size rock about 8 inches off the ground right in front of the machine with the blade up. If I put the blade down, it could handle the rock quite easily. But when building a wall you must be able to travel with it in the thumb and swing over the side as well, so I just don't think this machine is quite big enough, even though I was very impressed with it's speed and overall performance. I really like the hydraulics on the machine, very fast and responsive. What my concern is that I'm not sure if the thumb itself on a 304 will be bigger than that of a 303. We found today that we had a hard time just grabbing these rocks, like the thumb wasn't long enough. DKinWA, can you tell me if the thumb is longer? Not sure if you've ever investigated this, but for us to be able to pick up a 1200-1300 pound rock with a 304 we at least need to be able to grab it, because the thumb on this 303 wouldn't even be able to get "around" a rock that big, regardless if the machine could physically pick it up. Overall, the machine was very nice and easy to load onto our tiltbed trailer. The 304 will have to go up on the gooseneck, a bit of an inconvinience but oh well. Hopefully next week we'll have a 304 up here to do a little more comparison. Oh, BTW since yesterday we've gotten 2 calls to put in rock retaining walls, this is a good sign! So far we have 3 to install in the next few weeks, we'll probably do one wall with the 304 demo to see how it works out. Again, I'd like to thank everyone for their insight. I'll try to keep posted. THanks!

 

[DKinWA]

The difference between the 303 and 304 is night and day not only in size, but capacity as well. I have some of the same issues you do with the thumb because it's too straight and doesn't have enough curve to it. A little more curve would make it easier to pick up round objects like rocks. If I did a lot of rock work like you do, I'd use the existing thumb as a pattern to make a more appropriate thumb for rock work. Changing the thumb wouldn't be much more difficult than changing a bucket, but you could switch to whichever works best for the conditions you're working in. If all you do is rock work, I'd also consider switching to an aftermarket grapple. PSM, Esco, AIM and several others make them and even have them for mini-x's.

 

[CascadeScaper]

Thanks DK. I posted on lawnsite but I'll "repost" here. We got our hands on a 304.5, they had one in town on rent and the renter was done using it so our sales guy called and said we could just pick it up and use it for a few days. I figured this was a good deal, and we have a rock retaining wall to put in this weekend, so we hauled the 304.5 to the rock quarry that is owned by a friend of ours so we could pick our rocks. I ran the machine for about 15 minutes as it was getting dark, but rocks that would challenge the 303CR to lift over the front 8 inches off the ground in front of the blade were easily handled the 304.5. I was picking up 900 pound rocks with the stick all the way out and the rock 4 feet off the ground, then swing over the side, no problem at all for this machine. The thumb on the 304.5 was substantially bigger and I cannot complain about that size of thumb, it was very easy to grasp the size of rocks that we need to be grabbing. I'm going to assume that the 304CR is going to have the same size thumb as the 4.5 because the the 4 and the 4.5 are pretty close in specs, am I correct? Our sales guy told us we couldn't put a PSM or CWS thumb on this machine. I'm going to call BS on that, I know it can be done but it will be way more expensive to put an aftermarket thumb on there, as the dealer already has new 304CRs with thumbs on them and to order one without will only be about $2K less and a thumb, bucket, and coupler from PSM will probably be over $6K. So, as long as the Cat thumb on the 304CR is the same as the one on the 304.5, I don't think we'll have any problems. Also, the thumb control on the 4.5 was on the right joystick, what a joy! None of that moving your foot crap. I was a little dissapointed though, it didn't have any travel pedals, very lame. That's the only way to do it, none of that taking your hands off the sticks to walk the machine around.

We should have a 304CR up here next week to get a real good idea how this machine will stack up to a 304.5 and I can say right now that if the performance is the same or better, then we will have a great machine on our hands. I was impressed with the 4.5 and it's a 1200 hr. machine that is beat to crap and I still enjoyed running it. DK, didn't you say you've rented a 304.5 before? How do you feel it compares to the 304CR? Thanks for the help!

 

[DDW_OR]

CascadeScaper, which excavator did you buy. I am also looking for one. found a cat 304cr with cab and hydraulic thumb for $30,900. does not say which year. 2900 hrs
I have more than 14,000 feet of fence to put in to a hilly and wooded area. have a Mahindra 5520 4x4 tractor and a Farmi 501 pto winch. and a Landpride Hydraulic RBT40108 6 way 3-point blade.

 

[DDW_OR]

sorry i forgot to reply to your message. please see my post asking which excavator did you buy?

 

[I AM IRONMAN]

Hi DDW
I am looking at the 304C or the 304D, which would be your preference since your up to speed on the Cats? I see some of the machines have a longer stick. Which would be better?
Thanks