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Michigan 175B

ruralexmech

Active Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
44
Location
Platteville, WI
Oldseabee, you seem to know quite a bit more about the machine than i do. I am glad to work along side someone who knows their stuff very well =D. For hydraulic oil we run 10W oil although you could go up to 20W if you so desire but the trade off is heavier oil for slower fluid velocity resulting in higher cycle times. Yes, the brakes as oldseabee said are air over hydraulic disc brakes and there are two of them per wheel. We just rebuilt ours with new gaskets and everything because they had been leaking some fluid, but they work very well otherwise. We change the oil in our Case 580M backhoe-loaders every 1000 hours and i believe you could do the same with the Michigan 175B. But being that the 175B is older, i would consider changing the oil at a bit smaller of intervals because of the build-up of metal shavings, etc. over the years. The final drives should share the same oil as the gearbox but I am not sure, hopefully oldseabee can answer the rest of the questions.

Logan
 

FarmerAlex

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Aug 1, 2010
Messages
236
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Australia
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Engineer (AT UNI), Heavy equipment owner/ operator
Cheers Logan, once i've had a look at will post more pictures. Now all i have to do is rustle up some more work for it :D

Alex
 

sultan

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Jan 19, 2010
Messages
298
Location
Ontario, Canada
Thanks a lot oldseabee, thats brilliant info!!!!!! What type of hydraulic oil do you use in your loaders? Is it an general light engine oil, or a specific type of hydraulic oil. I saw recently a special deal for casterol hydat oil i think, for 630 something dollars for a barrel. So given that the loader needs 80 plus gallons would require about two barrels. How often should this oil be changed?
I generally write up my own maintenance schedules, just wondering if its a 1000 hour type limit??? Are the final drives sealed from the gearbox? or do they share the same oil?

Whats the average fuel consumption per hour on a machine like this??? For my tractors i work on the general rule of thum For every 20hp used = 1 Gallon per hour fuel consumption. Therefore at 250 hp being used on average 12.5 Gallons per hour. Is this a fairly accurate estimate

Cheers

Alex :D

The finals and differentials should be separate from the gearbox and should use SAE 80W90 gear oil. The transmission should use automatic transmission fluid. For the hydraulics, use hydraulic oil (not engine oil). You can get away with a 2000 hour hydraulic oil and transmission fluid change interval with the loader. Change the differential/final drive oil every 1000 hours. These intervals may differ slightly from the ones in the book but they should do fine and keep the loader running well for years to come.

12.5 gallons an hour sounds rather generous to me for a 250 hp machine. I'd expect it to be more like 9-10 gallons an hour for a loader of that size and vintage. My 105 net hp CAT IT18F is remarkably fuel efficient, it burns just 9-10L (around 2.5 US gallons) per hour for most work.
 

FarmerAlex

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Aug 1, 2010
Messages
236
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Engineer (AT UNI), Heavy equipment owner/ operator
Righto thanks for that Sultan. I generally use a Casterol, or any other reputable oil brand.
Now do these diesels run a heavier grade of diesel to that of general bowser diesel???

Now where are the hydraulic pumps burried? are they are belt driven setup? or are they run in the gearbox? And is there seperate pumps and systems for the loading part and the steering?

Do you think it would be possible to run a flail type machine on the front in lieu of the bucket for brush clearing???

cheerio
Alex
 

sultan

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Messages
298
Location
Ontario, Canada
Righto thanks for that Sultan. I generally use a Casterol, or any other reputable oil brand.
Now do these diesels run a heavier grade of diesel to that of general bowser diesel???

Now where are the hydraulic pumps burried? are they are belt driven setup? or are they run in the gearbox? And is there seperate pumps and systems for the loading part and the steering?

Do you think it would be possible to run a flail type machine on the front in lieu of the bucket for brush clearing???

cheerio
Alex

Diesel's diesel, anything remotely diesel like would do fine on one of these old beasts. Heck they'll even run on used cooking oil. I'm not too familiar with these old michigans, so oldseabee would be a much better source for technial details. I believe any reputable hydraulic oil should do fine provided its the right viscosity for your climate.

If I remember right, the loader hydraulic pump on big old michigans were on torque converters to give the effect of variable displacement pumps with just simple fixed displacement gear or vane pumps. I think the steering and loader pumps were separate, but I'm not completely certain.
 

FarmerAlex

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Aug 1, 2010
Messages
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Australia
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Engineer (AT UNI), Heavy equipment owner/ operator
Thanks again sultan, and to all of you, its such a great place to post ideas and see what i can do with them. I think one of the big things is a lot of young guys like myself are trodden down by others. I have been told that i should grow up, before i try anything like this. I'm really looking forward to the challenge of operating such a big piece of equipment.
As i'm studying robotics and mechatronics will be seriously looking into also providing technical support for all heavy electronically controlled equipment. Its a real passion, heavy iron.

Anyway back to the 175, are all the filters just a standard type cat?? or should i modify to Cat type filters for ease and for cheapness too?

Alex
 

oldseabee

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Jan 23, 2010
Messages
529
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Milner, Ga.
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Transmission oil -1C and above use 30W engine oil, -23C and above use 10W engine oil or C2 hyd trans fluid, -34C and above use ATF Dexron (not Dexron II), so in Canada that is why they use ATF Dexron. Filter change 250 Hrs, oil change 500 hrs.
Hydraulic oil -18C and above use 10W engine oil, -34C and above use ATF Dexron. Filter change at 250 hours, oil change 1000 hrs, filters are in tank under a round access plate, no need to drain tank. There are 2 filter elements in the tank, could be donaldson or other brand, but need to be under Clark or Michigan Part number due to pressure requirements, a will fit filter will blow up and scatter paper all over the tank and clog the suction filter.
I will see if I can dig up the Clark part numbers for the filters. There is also a suction screen in the tank that should be cleaned, it is under a different access cover.
Main Hyd pump is Tyrone double pump. Both sections pump up to bypass pressure 1700 PSI, then one section dumps back to suction, the other section continues on to 2200 PSI
Steer pump is also Tyrone double pump, both sections pump up to 1600 RPM, then one section dumps back to suction, this gives more even steering from low to hi RPM
Both pumps are mounted on the convertor.
The brake system uses brake fluid not hyd oil.
 
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FarmerAlex

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Aug 1, 2010
Messages
236
Location
Australia
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Engineer (AT UNI), Heavy equipment owner/ operator
Looked at the Loader

Gday all, went and had a look at the loader, well there was good and bad news on that front, heres a precis of what i have discovered.

=> The starter motor works well
=> 4 Speed Powershift
=> 3rd Valve and lines to front for log grab
=> All tyres are inflated and in good condition
=> Cab dry, guages work, new start key
=> New exhaust elbow
=> Cummins 6 Cly engine, turbo'd
=> Batteries dead
=> No cracks, or substantial wear on pins
=> All remote valves are free
=> Air tanks hold pressure
=> One door missing
=> No lights at all
=> No apparent oil leaks from engine
=> Stored outside

So thats the main points i have found, when i arrived there it appears the loader was driven around a bit this year, then the bloke got it stuck, it isnt on its guts but close to it, has been left there since april. Looks in ok condition, the bloke said everything worked well when he had it running then.

The history of the loader is that i was originally owned by a logging contractor, apparently 9 years ago his contract was cut off, since then the loader has sat. The bloke that now owns it has had it for a year, he said that it is too big for his needs.

Getting there today there was light rain, the bloke had nothing ready... I poked and prodded all over the loader. I asked for him to start the loader, its a 24 volt system, he tried to jump start from his ute, the starter solenoid just kept flying in an out. So never got to see it run.

So heres what i think will need to be done.

=> New Cab door
=> Full set of work and road lights
=> New Hydraulic oil
=> New Hydraulic Filters
=> New Engine oil
=> New Engine filters
=> New Fuel filters
=> New gearbox oil
=> All loader pins removed, cleaned and regreased
=> New grease nipples
=> New fan belts
=> New radiator coolant

Given the asking price of 15k, I don't think the loader is worth much more than 9k given the amount of work i will have to do to get it up to a workable standard.

any thoughts greatly appreciated

cheers Alex
 

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FarmerAlex

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Engineer (AT UNI), Heavy equipment owner/ operator
More Pictures

Here are some more pictures of the 175. :D
 

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oldseabee

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Milner, Ga.
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The air system could be a problem, I would hook up a compressor to each air tank, unscrew the bleed valve then with air blowing through the tank work on the outside with a hammer to dislodge the fine surface rust powder and blow it out before it gets into the air valves, or remove them and have them boiled out at a rad shop, condensation over a long time will cause this, also the brake calipers and master cylinders may have internal corrosion if the brake fluid was never changed, brake fluid attracts moisture. Calipers are probably Bendix and kits would be available to rebuild them, may need a good honing first.
 

FarmerAlex

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Australia
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Engineer (AT UNI), Heavy equipment owner/ operator
Thanks oldseabee, can water really badly effect the turbo. Forgot to add that the exhaust was left uncovered, was horizontal but i am still worried about whether the rain has damaged the turbo. So in fact what i have to do is also take all the brakes off it as well, get them all resealed.

The brake caliper removal would mean jacking and removing each wheel, yes??? I think with all the work i have to do, it will take me at least a solid weeks worth of work.

I'm thinking now that maybe 8k might be a good offer, what do others think this is worth??

cheers

Alex :D
 

oldseabee

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Turbo could be affected, it should be examined to see, the big worry is that enough water got in to go down through the exhaust manifold and on top of one or more pistons, this can cause real excitment on initial start up. The brake calipers may or may not be a problem. I would clean the air tanks first, get the machine working then use a power bleeder to purge as much of the old brake fluid as you can, then watch the brake fluid level in the master cylinders and for leaks at the calipers. If you get several calipers leaking, then you might want to schedule all of them to rebuild. If you only get one or two leaks, fix the ones on that wheel and watch the rest. You will have to get the machine working and the brakes heated up to really tell.
 
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ruralexmech

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Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
44
Location
Platteville, WI
OH WOW!! I didn't know i haven't been on for so long! I guess between work and college, i haven't had much time to check up on how things were going, sorry to kinda leave you hanging there Alex. I'm gonna read through the rest of the new part of the thread and see if there are any more questions i can try to answer.

Good luck,
Logan
 

ruralexmech

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Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
44
Location
Platteville, WI
Thanks oldseabee, can water really badly effect the turbo. Forgot to add that the exhaust was left uncovered, was horizontal but i am still worried about whether the rain has damaged the turbo. So in fact what i have to do is also take all the brakes off it as well, get them all resealed.

The brake caliper removal would mean jacking and removing each wheel, yes??? I think with all the work i have to do, it will take me at least a solid weeks worth of work.

I'm thinking now that maybe 8k might be a good offer, what do others think this is worth??

cheers

Alex :D

Ok so we have had problems with the brakes on our two 175B's pretty frequently recently (though they are rarely a problem usually though). That being said, i can describe the process to work on both the front and rear brakes very specifically.

There are two brake calipers on each disk (so two per wheel).

To answer your question though, yes you do need to remove the wheel to get at the calipers.

Here's a pretty in-depth description on how to take off each caliper, and then how to replace the seals in each caliper:

1. Remove the wheel:
Jack up the wheel that you are going to work on. We use one of those small pneumatic jacks to raise the tire about three inches off the ground.
Remove all of the nuts from the wheel (you can leave a nut on the top and one on the bottom started on their threads to be safe). We use a 3/4" drive impact wrench with a 1 1/8" impact socket on the end.
The next step (and this is just the way we do it) is to remove the wheel. We put "Forky" (our shop's 1961 gas Clark forklift) in front of the tire with the forks just pressing up against the bottom. Then we fasten a chain around the mast of the forklift and around the tire to pull the tire off the hub and onto the forks of the forklift.
2. Remove the guard
On the rear tires, there is an angular piece of steel that guards the brake lines from being damaged. Nothing special to take it off, just remove the bolts and pull 'er off.
On the front tires, there is a big piece of curved steel that gets removed.
3. Disconnect Brake Lines
The brake lines then come off and just make sure you have a pan below the lines as they will drip brake fluid all over the place when you remove them.
After that, I usually depress the brake cylinders to get rid of all the oil that's still in there and so that the calipers come off easier.
4. Take off the Calipers
With everything else out of the way, the calipers will just slide right off very easily after removing the 5 remaining bolts that hold them to the axle.
These bolts should have lock-tite on them to keep them from loosening up. When you reinstall the bolts, make sure to apply lock-tite liberally over them to keep these bolts in place.
5. Disassemble the Calipers
Take the brake pad out first, it should slide off fairly easily and you can set it aside for now.
Then you can remove the four bolts that hold each cover on and then you can remove the two covers.
After the bolts are off you can pull each of the pistons out of their cylinders and make sure you know which way they came out so they go in the same way! The way i have always taken them out is through the middle of the caliper and NOT through the cover that was just removed.
Thoroughly clean each part after removing all of the old seals and o-rings with brake cleaner.
Cleaning now finished, you can pat yourself on the back! Don't have a beer yet though, it still needs to go back together =D
You should have a collection of new seals and stuff and all of those need to go into the calipers.
There are two o-rings that go on the four-bolt covers and you can put those on, but I can't remember if the o-rings are specific to each slot. Anyways, once you find out which ones go where, get the bottle of white lithium grease ready. Grease up each o-ring and slide each one into a slot.
Then there are four more o-rings that go into each cylinder to seal each piston. Grease all of those up and put them into their cylinders.
Each cylinder also has a rubber skirt to go over it to prevent from material damaging the seal. Those can get greased and inserted into the cylinders with the skirt part facing outward of course.
Apply grease to the cylinders and, well... there isn't really an easy way to do this. You just need to finaggle the pistons into each of their cylinders. But do it gently! Make sure that when you get each of them in, that the o-rings still seal around the piston properly. Also make sure to get the skirt over the piston before you put it in and make sure that the skirt is properly sealing the piston.
With all of the pistons in- and don't get frustrated if this takes a while to do, they just don't go in easily-you can then pick up the brake pads and use some emory cloth to sand/smooth out the pad. Then after the pad is cleaned up, spray it liberally with brake cleaner to get it nice and clean. Then put the pad in the way it came out.
6. Reassemble
Everything past the brake pad is just basic reassembly and doesn't need to me described again.


I hope this helps describe the process, its not the most difficult process and its actually one of my favorite things to fix! I guess that's just because i love this machine though. Nonetheless, still refer to the maintenance manual above me since it is the most accurate.

Whew, hope that just about covers it.
Logan
 

oldseabee

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Sounds like you have done a few. One thing to add is that any grease or lube on the seals has to be compatible with seals that are made for brake fluid, otherwise just use brake fluid for assembly. The wrong grease can cause the seals to deteriorate and start to leak. Be sure to checlk the discs for too much wear or warping
 

FarmerAlex

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Aug 1, 2010
Messages
236
Location
Australia
Occupation
Engineer (AT UNI), Heavy equipment owner/ operator
Thanks a lot both of you, without your help and ideas wouldn't dream of taking this on, i will make sure that i have a few contracts signed on, and if so will go to the bank and make an offer... I would love to have a machine like this.

Heres what i will be doing to it:

>>Brakes will be done
>>New Batteries
>>Full set of road and work lights
>>New Cab door
>>Bucket
>>Full service

Now a question i have also is how much running should i give it before changing the oils, given that it has sat for nearly 8 years, i would be fairly certain that there is a very high moisture content in the oils. Should i really work it first to stir all the muck up before draining or not???

Now with changing the hydraulic oil is there a way of getting into the tank to clean it out???

And how much oil do i need for the diffs?? and should i use a GL-5 type oil, or will a GL-4 be ok??

Now given that i has sat for eight years plus, should i remove all the loader pins and such to remove rust, regrease them and put them back inside??

And does anyone put additives in their oils to help with the longevity of seals? i know for my ute we kept destroying a the main transfer case seal, the heat from the engine just made it turn as hard as hell. We put a teflon additive and that has done miracles in improving the longevity.

Sorry for the long post

Alex :D (Many thanks again, your the blokes that make this forum what it is)

Cheerio
 

FarmerAlex

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Aug 1, 2010
Messages
236
Location
Australia
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Engineer (AT UNI), Heavy equipment owner/ operator
And also, when i need to move it out of the mud, how do i do it, he has sat there spinning the wheels digging down down down, now it is sitting on a water pipe and telephone lines, will be a big pick and shovel job i imagine

Thanks
Alex
 

oldseabee

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Milner, Ga.
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There is a process in the Operators Manual to clean the hydraulic system:
1. to drain the cylinders, raise the boom to full height and extend the bucket cylinders,
SECURELY BLOCK OR CHAIN THE BOOM AND BUCKET IN THIS POSITION, then shut down the engine.
2. Loosen reservoir cap slowly to relieve pressure. Remove the drain plug and drain the reservoir.
3. Remove the drain plug in the hand hole cover at the bottom of the reservoir to drain it.
4. disconnect the boom and bucket cylinder hoses at the lowest points to drain the cylinders.
5. Remove and clean the reservoir suction filter, replace the reservoir return filter assembly
6. Remove the hand hole cover from the bottom of the resrvoir and clean all the foriegn material from the bottom of the tank, remove the magnet and clean it, reinstall the magnet, the hand hole cover and drain plug.
7. Reconnect all hoses and unions.
8. Refill reservoir to FULL mark on dipstick and secure the cap.
9. Be sure all the levers are in the neutral position, start the engine and run it at low idle for a few minutes.
10. Place the boom raise lever in the raise position to pump oil back into the boom cylinders. Then remove the blocks or chains from the boom and bucket. DO NOT STAND UNDER THE BOOM/BUCKET AFTER REMOVING THE BLOCKS AND OR CHAINS.
11. Operate the machine, raising and lowering the boom and dumping and rollback the bucket several times to bleed the air out of the system. Refill the reservoir to Full mark.

There will still be some old oil in the steer cylinders and hoses that will go back through the filters.
Change the filters after 50 hours.
USE NO CLEANING FLUIDS TO CLEAN THE SYSTEM, IT WILL EAT UP SEALS AND PACKINGS.

ALL THAT SAID, YOU MIGHT WANT TO DRAIN AND CLEAN THE RESERVOIR FIRST SINCE IT HAS BEEN SITTING SO LONG,THEN GO THROUGH THE CLEANING PROCESS TO PURGE THE REST OF THE BAD OIL.

Capacities:
Engine oil: Detroit 24.6 liters, Cummins 53 liters
Cooling system: 90.8 liters
Front and rear Diff: 28.4 liters each
Planetaries: 7.6 liters each
Fuel tank: 439.1 liters
Hydraulic system: 435.3 liters
Torque converter and transmission:41.6 liters
Midmount bearing: 1.9 liters

These are all approximate, fill to correct levels.
Gear oil: Original was 90 W SCL which if memory serves me contained whale oil and stunk
GL4 should work well and either 85/140W or 90W your choice, the multi weight is better if you have a large swing in ambient temps or more roading.
I listed oil specs further back in this or the other 175B string.
 
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ruralexmech

Active Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
44
Location
Platteville, WI
In terms of the loader pins, taking them all out, removing the rust, and re-greasing them is the least you can do for it. First inspect all of the pins and any that have a significant amount of rust deposits or pitting will need to get replaced. In addition to that, you need to look at the pin cylinders to make sure that they aren't pitted too terribly as well. There are special brush tools that you can use to clean up the rest of the rust spots. But DON'T run the pins against any sort of sandpaper, emery cloth, or wire brushes to get the rust off. That will only roughen up the pins even more. I will have to ask my fellow mechanic tomorrow what the brushes are called that can clean up these cylinder and pin rust deposits. But the brushes are fairly soft for the most part and we liberally apply PB Blaster to the surface to keep the brushes from wearing out. I'll let you know more in-depth tomorrow after i ask our other mechanic about how to restore/replace the pins.

You can put additives in, but from my prior experience oil companies usually MAKE oils the way they are supposed to be, so a good quality oil should do its job just fine without any additives. The chemical engineers generally know what they are doing in formulating oils, but a lot of companies that make additives don't really get that and think they can do the job better. Try using a good quality oil and you should be able to dodge any issues with adding other chemicals to the mix.

I think that your best method to get the loader out of the mud is first to dig out material around the wheels and attempt to create ramps in the direction that you wish to get it out of. Then i would suggest putting some wood or coarse gravel as a top-layer for those in-ground ramps to prevent any further slippage. But i don't really think that alone will be enough, so you will most likely need another piece of heavy equipment to help pull it out. Another strategy in getting a wheel loader unstuck is to use the bucket to push yourself out of the situation backwards by jamming the bucket into the ground and crowding the bucket to lever yourself out. But since the machine might be unable to work on its own power, i would recommend the first method to get out.

Happy to help Alex, I love to talk about heavy equipment.
Logan
 

FarmerAlex

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Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
236
Location
Australia
Occupation
Engineer (AT UNI), Heavy equipment owner/ operator
Gday all, i have done some digging on the clark loaders and it seems that i have lead you astray a little, the loader is not a 175b, but rather a 175c. There are a few differences,

4 speed powershift
Cummins engine 14l, 309.8hp, Its an NT-855C

thats the only differences i can find so far, :D so its newer than what i thought it was, will give the bloke another call this weekend and will make him run it for me.

Looking forward to the info about the pins Logan, take it easy

cheers Alex :D
 
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