Massey MF50 TLB with Perkins A4 236 engine question

[joe--h]

1993 year model with heavy oil smoke & not much power. Factory manual says I need to pull front cover to remove rotating counter balance assembly. My question to anybody who's done one is can I sneak the front rod and piston out without pulling the front cover and removing that thing ?

Looks like I'll need to machine some kind of plate to catch the bottom of the liners to get them out, but if I can't get the front cyl out I'm doing a 3 cyl overhaul which seems like a waste of time.

So, you Brits & Aussies that have these machines, is there a way to fake this? Or do I have to tear the whole damn thing apart? I had the pan off a couple years ago to fix the oil pressure relief valve that some moron designed into the oil pump instead of the filter housing so I have a faint rememberance of what that thing looks like down under the crank at the front. Got a little carried away shimming the relief valve, now have 70 PSI at idle. Better than the 0 PSI I had before.

This machine was made in England and nobody here seems to know squat about them, and I don't want to tear into it without some clue as to whether or not it can be done as I'm thinking. Factory manual is typical Brit, absolutely useless. Want to know what kind of steel the valve seat is made from, it's in the book. How to actually fix something, not in the book.

Help! Joe H

 

[robin yates uk]

I am a typical Brit so I guess there is no point in offering assistance?

 

[stock]

What Perkins is it?? 236 or 248...............

 

[ih100]

Interesting this one. You could go into the African bush and find someone in a mud hut who could fix these engines. Must be a typical Brit thing, making them too simple.

 

[robin yates uk]

:drinkup:laugh:laugh:laugh:falldownlaugh:falldownlaugh

 

[robin yates uk]

:drinkup:laugh:laugh:laugh:falldownlaugh:falldownlaugh,,,,,,,good comment IH100

 

[joe--h]

If you know the answer, yes.
If not, no.

Engine is as the title says, A4 236

 

[Delmer]

Never done one, so I can't answer your question.

I can't imagine you couldn't get the rod up past the balance shaft though, is there something I'm missing?

Are you sure you want a rebuild? How many hours on it? Do you know the history of the machine? any oil samples? Reason I'm asking is the engines I've pulled apart that seemed wore out, only to find the rings were stuck solid, but no wear at all to bore or rings. No idea how you'd free them up, other than pulling a manifold and squirting something in there. A 93 is not all that old, even for a British engine.

 

[joe--h]

History is unknown. Burning oil & down on power is about all I know for sure. It's not a balance shaft, it's a weight in a housing that is bolted to the block below the crank. Has to be in time and to do that need the front cover off to line up everything. Question is can I get the rod off with this in the way?

 

[stock]

Can you post a picture of your machine please ? My experience of these machines is that the 50h was a 236 and the hx was the 248. realistically there is very little difference between the two, the drawing above is of the oil pump which must be removed and needs to be timed on replacement if you don't the balance weights will foul on the big end cap .
The valve seats and guides do tend to wear prematurely, but the pistons and liners will last to 10k hours if properly looked after. If the engine is overheated then the rings can stick. The liners are dry type with an interference fit and need to be honed to the correct size when installed.
There are prefinished liners available but don't have the same life.If you plan on doing the liners with the engine in situ you will be using the prefinished ones, the liners are very light and great care must be exercised when installing them as they can crack or distort if improperly installed, If air gets trapped between the block and liners hot spots can develop resulting in premature failure.
My advice to you is to lift the head and have it checked before you go changing the liners.

 

[joe--h]

It's a 50H with a 236 engine. Has not been overheated since I've owned it but prior to that I have no knowledge. Whatever is causing the lack of power and smoke has gotten worse over time. Machine has little use, I use it only on my property.
The oil pump is mounted to that balancing gizmo. I had the pump off a couple years ago as the pressure relief had stuck open but just don't remember exactly what it looks like in there. I don't want to tear into it and find I need to remove the engine to do it right.
Might be best to leave it as is until I have the time to do it right rather than trying to patch it with a liner kit whilst lying in the dirt & snow.

Edit again, low hours. I think about 7000, re the gauge. Still has one original made in England Goodyear on the rear with good tread left.

 

[Delmer]

I forgot some obvious questions. Does it use oil? or could this be bad injectors? how's the blowby?

Don't mean to offend, I have no idea if you're an old diesel mechanic or a jack of all trades (master of none, like me). Nice table saw, BTW.

 

[Dickjr.]

If that balancer is what I think it is , I'd remove it if so required. How about an IT manuel from tractor supply. Those engines are great power plants and usually run over 10k hours before an overhaul. I'd say a little friendly gesture to the guys in the old country and they might offer up a little more info. The world is getting to be a small place.

 

[hookedondiesel]

I forgot some obvious questions. Does it use oil? or could this be bad injectors? how's the blowby?

Don't mean to offend, I have no idea if you're an old diesel mechanic or a jack of all trades (master of none, like me). Nice table saw, BTW.

I think he already stated it burnt oil and lots of blowby.

Maybe setting that relief valve at 70 psi put a strain on the old girl.
I believe these are set at 55.
Loss of power could be an injection pump and or injectors.
But I would bring the psi down, if possible.
If the loss of oil and power is "drastic", do a compression test.

 

[joe--h]

Actually can't say as to blowby, smoke in the exhaust. I'll need to fire it up and see about blowby.

Injectors are new made in India from Greg's tractor supply. It was running rich but no help from injectors so I adjusted the mixture by changing the setting in the pump. Lucas CAV pump has an adjustment. Black smoke gone, now just oil.

Changing the oil pressure means dropping the pan again and guessing at it. That spring #26 in the drawing is the pressure regulator. I shoved a washer or 2 in behind it. That was a couple years ago.

Also I'm at 6800' so thin air. Cold air too right now.

I have the factory manual & parts book. I spent 30 years working on Brit cars, these manuals are typical of British shop manuals in that they don't tell you what you need to know but are real long on useless info that's of no help. Not trying to offend but anyone who's ever owned a British car knows the manuals are less than helpful sometimes.

Right now it's 20F and snowed last night so probably not going to be playing mechanic today.

Joe H

 

[joe--h]

Ran it this aft for a bit. Zero blowby but does use oil. I never worked on diesels so no idea what to think. Looks like no valve seals in these, maybe guides are worn or who knows?

Joe H

 

[Dickjr.]

Maybe you can get by with redoing the head. If your gonna have to pull it anyway I'd have the valve guides / seals checked out. No blowby , and it started in cold weather , I'd bet on a good head job. It never hurts.

 

[Delmer]

I'll go with Dickjr and Stock, look at the head, forget the rings.

Is this one that has the breather tucked in beside the crankshaft pulley? where it hides the blowby? Hard to see the blowby if it's right in the fan, even if it's cold outside.

If there's no blowby then the pistons are working fine. If you wanted to confirm, you could do a leak down test, then add oil and check again, the amount of improvement is the amount of piston leakage that the oil sealed up. Stock mentioned valve seat and guide wear, sounds like he knows what he's talking about. Have you checked the valve lash?

The blue smoke could be a lot of things, but I can't explain a loss of power. Do you notice the low power while running the hydraulics or only when moving the machine? Does it rev up slower than it used to?

Apparently, blue smoke can also be a timing issue, would't hurt to check the timing, before tearing into the head. Or just blame it on the altitude?

Now I know what you mean about British manuals, back in the day I thought all manuals were that bad, I'd never read a real shop manual. I do have to say, that MG was the best car ever to push start.

 

[ih100]

There's a few things to think about here. Firstly, back to basics, is the air filter clear? At that altitude you aren't going to need a lot of restriction before the engine starts eating oil. Secondly, zero blowby? You don't even get that on a new Perkins with modern, tighter production clearances. How did you measure it? Thirdly, if the valve guides are worn enough to cause blue smoke, it would be unusual for them to be that worn and the rings/cylinders not worn, unless the liners have been done at some point. Check for scoring and possibly a broken ring.

 

[joe--h]

OK, no visible blowby. Road draft tube runs down the left side of the engine. Don't see anything coming out and no evidence of oil on the side of the pan. Air filters are relatively new but I'll have a look.
Joe H