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Local contractors out of hand

Discussion in 'Safety Issues' started by DMiller, May 15, 2019.

  1. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    A contractor/supplier failed to supply a product as he promised to. Remedy the deficiency plus damages. The damages because the spacecraft was lost. If the discrepancy was discovered beforehand then no damages except wasted time replacing it.

    The guy with the truck on the road, the difficulty arises because it is public space. The man should not have to give up his rights to enter upon a public space. If he makes it through OK, then no one harmed. If someone or something is damaged then he has to pay.
     
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  2. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    Two space craft were lost which was public money. It was criminal conduct as it was the definition of fraud. For what ever reason the feds were only going after a portion of the loss on each craft when they should be going after the entire loss. That would be the civil part of it.
    Birken what you described already exists. If the person makes it through without being caught then no one is harmed. The behavior is reinforced! If he makes it through and is caught, the only one harmed is himself. He is going to pay a tax for doing something stupid! The real issue though is if he causes damage to me, I have to pay a price for doing things the right way!
     
  3. ianjoub

    ianjoub Senior Member

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    Civil infraction until he causes a loss to another person. It then becomes criminal.
     
  4. AzIron

    AzIron Senior Member

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    I think it all boils down to if people used common sense then they would have tied there load properly or had a vehicle that could handle the trailer they are pulling only in a perfect world tho

    Unfortunately there is no right answer and going out on the road you take the risk of sharing it with people that are not all tooled up or prepared to be on the road with you and as long as people in general are involved the risk will be there

    There is no reasonable way to force a rule onto anyone that doesn't deem it important till they get caught usually after an accident what the penalty for driving a CMV without a cdl but a local company just got popped here last week they had 1 cdl driver for the 4 trucks that were on the road every day it's just stupid they lost there dot number so now they changed there company name and are at it again they just dont care
     
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  5. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    And that goes back to Truck Shops initial post on the subject. The stupid tax needs to be onerous.

    The issue goes back to state levels because when the people are damaged to the point that they can no longer provide for themselves, the costs go back to the federal and state governments in the form of Medicare and Medicaid. It always happens that way because most of those pirating loads can't afford to do it the right way and most don't carry enough or any insurance to cover their behavior. I understand all the points made here about pirating loads and not getting caught and brushing it off when they do get caught.
     
  6. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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    That is the big point here. Most are out for the coin and don't care as they managed to get away with it for so long, only the Cat has a maximum amount of lives and chances, bound to hit the Lottery and win the fur lined pee pot the hard way.
     
  7. Truck Shop

    Truck Shop Senior Member

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    All the talk about laws and infractions on this thread and every one of you missed the point. No matter if you are hauling short distance under 100 miles as the crow flies or
    OTR. Any body who gets behind the wheel has to fill out a daily drivers inspection report and has to be kept on file in the place of business for state and federal audit.
    When you sign that report as the driver you assume all responsibility for that vehicle. And any vehicle no mater what GVW that is used in any manner for commercial use
    hauling privet or for profit has to follow Federal DOT guidelines. Any defects with vehicle or how vehicle is loaded falls directly on the driver if he or she knowingly falsifies and ok's
    the vehicle for use. Falsifying a log book is a State and Federal criminal offence.
     
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  8. Birken Vogt

    Birken Vogt Charter Member

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    Let the buyer beware. You can't trust anybody. Even NASA vendors. The buyer needs to have their inspector. If they detected it after a spacecraft exploded they surely could have detected it before.
     
  9. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    I want to say with the NASA space craft analogy it won't go civil or criminal .

    It's neither as so many people signed off on the legal waiver's before hand understanding the risk involved .

    Good question John C . :cool:
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  10. check

    check Senior Member

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    5 years is pretty extreme considering that repeat rapists and killers often get less. In the old days no tie-off was required at all. I worked dangerous jobs much of my life and got paid extra for it. I do not wish to live a risk free life, just use good judgement and mitigate those risks. If I wanted to live an absolute risk-free life, I would have stayed in my mother's womb.
     
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  11. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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    Only for such as Swift or England and a number of others that hire the fresh from the License factories all learnt up to drive the Billy Big Rigs!!
     
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  12. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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    Can still remember the weekend at a friend's family farm near Bachelor MO, was to have ponds dug by a local St. Charles contractor as a discount favor for them getting all the excavation work for that family's home building business. We were at the farm house overnight, on a Friday, first thing in morning before daylight the first(actually number Two) truck rolls in with Cat Rubber Tired loader IIRC a 966, driver strips it down, gets off the trailer and ZOOM he is out the gate back the way he came. By this time Sun is coming up.

    About an hour and half later the actual First truck rolls in, Empty, driver all in a red faced tizzy. Second truck that showed up first comes bounding in with D7 on it, Sod, twigs and some bent parts on the ROPS and Sweeps, exhaust bent to hell and back the off the trailer it comes and they set to digging ponds. Late Sunday, holes done rigs loaded and POOF they are gone home.

    Seems the story was the D7 was on the float blade on and against the trailer neck, put two 3/8 chains across the rear track pads to opposite rail and they left out of Harvester MO on some side roads, one to avoid the Wentzville/Foristell scales and two to avoid State DOT as to hauling permit oversize overweight on a weekend AT NIGHT in those days was NOT allowed. Was on two lane blacktop secondary highway, made one hard sweeping corner a little tooo fast POP and POP and off the D7 went to the right side ditch. Slight bank full of saplings and loose fill to a creek at the bottom. According to the operator the tractor slipped off rolled over once landing upright taking out a WAD of trees, brush and crap landing on its shoes in the creek in the dark. No extra chains, trailer beaten up pretty bad, he radio'd the other guy who helped get it started and tracked back up the grade then he high tailed it to offload and get back to haul that D7 in. Tractor wore that damage like a badge of dishonor for years until traded off. MSHP "Never Caught the culprit" HOWEVER, the grading company donated a LOT of high dollar price tag toys to MSHP and to MODOT as well did the reparations grade work and paid for asphalt repair where someone had tracked a big tractor to reload.

    Life in our business was a LOT more forgiving in the late 60s
     
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  13. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Dug around & spotted a few articles on the subject .

    Looks like Betty Grissom's case set an early precedent on compensation .

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Grissom

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1987-01-20-mn-5999-story.html

    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-03-08-mn-614-story.html
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nasa-paid-columbia-families-millions/
     
  14. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    CDL … That stand for " Can Dive Loaded " :D

    https://cdllife.com/2017/trucker-collapsed-historic-bridge-gets-jail-time/

    Attention Walmart shoppers ….. " We are currently out of bottled water but if you head south out of town about a mile it's stuck in the old iron bridge " . :eek:
     
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  15. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    CDL rating …. :eek: " Can't Define Logic ." :D :p
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  16. Ronsii

    Ronsii Senior Member

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    I remember seeing this on the news and thinking 'what was the driver thinking???'

    And of course every-time I go over this little bridge in the valley I think the same thing when I see a big rig up in front of me :confused: this bridge has a similar weight restriction on it... quite a few years ago they made it one way just to cut down on the weights and a few other issues with trucks...
    I guess this driver figured it worked before.... should be ok :eek:
    bridge-loadover.jpg
     
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  17. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    Yeah Ronsii . Crazy part is the bridge would have held fine if the trailer had not taken out the upper supports .

    Oh well . Women drivers & stuff happens . :D
     
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  18. oceanobob

    oceanobob Senior Member

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    Interesting thread - Was at a safety seminar just the other day and the DOT had a presentation showing the change to the classification of a commercial vehicle to 10,000 gvwr. Traces back to a federal standard changed around 2016. Some of this info is prolly only California .... your state may differ but fed oversite may have provoked changes and after reading this thread I wonder if this is perhaps whyso.
    Previously and for many years it was 26,000 gvwr. I had no idea this was changed recently but my four tire personal diesel rig is older and is less than this magic number. My bobtail dump has been in the program for quite a few years. This topic no real effect on my ops.
    However, upon hearing this news, some fellow contractors with the late model $$ four wheel 350's and the dual wheel versions are agitated (and likely nervous). There has been a lot of door jamb sticker inspections in the last few days and of course commentary about getting stopped w/o the necessary paperwork I LOL a little because I have been doing all this for some time and they were often quite happy to suggest I should sell off my older heavier duty iron with all those terrible rules and "enjoy the ride of a new pickup" (but when I look under the hood I get nauseous and then when I see the electrical on the dashboard my wallet hurts). I told 'em only about eight sheets of paper and the owner operator may again drive down the road: Proper license as to class and endorsements, medical card, enrollment in drug and alcohol, registration with DMV, CARB compliance for emissions, smoke test too if applicable, motor carrier permit active w insurance submittal, insurance card, work hour evidence or log. etcetera etcetera
    Of course if they stay below 10,000 on the trailer they can skip a couple of these things but I am just trying to help: maybe when they see that they only need five or six sheets of paper they will feel like they are getting a fair shake? LOLOL

    I also sort of forgot to tell them the DOT said the present 'department policy' is to not examine a "pickup truck without a trailer" regardless of the load. But the inspector said as soon as any trailer of any type is attached, it becomes a candidate for pullover based upon that 10,000 gvwr. The inspectors were quick to define pickup as the factory installed open bed. Utility body, flat bed, flat bed with flip up sides, flat bed with tool boxes as sides, flat bed with removable side rails, box vans, and more examples are not pickups per their definition and are subject to these rules.

    The supply houses with the late model 350 or 3500 size flat beds or the box van folks at the furniture or appliance story or the feed or landscape supply are all going to be affected. Also heard back a few of the folks in the horse riding groups/clubs are quite nervous about these "new rules".

    The basic method to gain compliance for the late model diesel pickup crowd hooking up trailers under 10k is to file a motor carrier permit (MCP) and pay the fee for the permit and the supplemental fee for the inspection (CIF acronym or Carrier Inspection Fee). Have insurance company submit proof to DMV. Do everything correctly and document details of a safety inspection every 90 days.
    Another caveat they will learn: Due to the rules of the MCP, if driving within around 100 miles, have some record of work hours such as a time card or a daily planner etc: not necessary to have a log book or electronic log.

    And of course as to drivers license all the needed endorsements and classifications and medical were always previously required but as the Inspector said, this safety seminar isn't just about license, it is about Inspection and compliance with safety rules. In our area we have a sand dune off road area where folks with lifted diesel rigs and big drop hitches and/or fifth wheel toy haulers are prevalent on the weekends. The DOT gets onto this every coupla months and it is like fishing in a trout farm.

    As I was writing this, I was thinking hmmm with all these new fish in the pond, will the DOT be less likely to pull over the usual trucker....probably not likely, but a pickemup and no door tags (blank bulletin board) pulling a mini ex or heavy duty dump trailer would be likely be a powerful magnet for attraction.
     
  19. Truck Shop

    Truck Shop Senior Member

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    Good one Bob! I don't think many believed me in my last reply, but the hotshot is coming to an end. Once the US Dot number goes on the door it's all over. Farmers around here
    pulled that same crap for years dodging the paper work and regulations because they play the farm exempt card. That was only for the plate. In the last two years dot has been
    cracking the whip on them. Farmers also tried to sneak out from under the hours of service rules. Once the grain leaves the field it is under farm harvest hours, Once the grain
    is mixed at the elevator it becomes co-mingled and falls under OTR rules. And how about that FHWA vehicle inspection is that up to date. Everyone has to have a current medical
    card, let it lap and you lose your CDL and in Wa St done by a credited examiner.
     
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  20. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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    Same in MO, lapse in Med Card is a one month warning to get it back up or surrender license.