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Kopy Kat Cat

Discussion in 'Dozers' started by Cat 236, Jan 22, 2008.

  1. Construct'O

    Construct'O Senior Member

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    I'd wether take my chances on a good low houred used machine for that price.They are out there just check machinerytrader.

    At least there the orginal Cat to start with at least.Different strokes for different folks.Right !:drinkup:usa
     
  2. RKO

    RKO Well-Known Member

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    Look alike Cat's

    I was offered a job working for a company in there research department. Beings that I'm not getting any younger I went last week and talked to them. The one guy I needed to talk with, use to work for Cat and we got to talking about the knock off Cats. He said the main thing is China is building the main frames, track frames and hard noses. Other than that they are just buying after market parts and assembling the machines. The problem is Quality control with the parts China is building. The rest of the machine is just as good if not better than an original Cat. He has seen and talked to people that have these machines and two machines will be good and the next one is a problem. The main frame is the heart of a machine. Not much of Cat machines are built in the United States, but since some Cat machines are assembled in the United States some people think that makes all Cats great. Komatsu and Hitachi are bigger players world wide that Cat and a lot of their machines are built over seas. Their main target market is areas that had short machine lives. I ran one of these in Florida two years ago and it ran great, but then it only had 4,000 hours on it. The company that had it looked at renting a machine at 6,000 dollars a month and said if this machine would run for a year and they could sell it and get some of their money back they would better off. So many companies now rent or buy what equipment they need for a job then return or sell the equipment when the job is done. They know what their cost is on that job and don't have money tied up in equipment. This is the market that is being targeted with these machines.
    We all made fun of the Japanese stuff a few years ago and now they are major players in the Auto, electrical and construction fields. China is the next Japan
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2008
  3. RKO

    RKO Well-Known Member

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    Knock off Cats

    Cat' patent is long gone on the D6D, These are being built under the same rights as the aftermarket parts are being built.
     
  4. ConstSite

    ConstSite Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jan 24, 2008
  5. Construct'O

    Construct'O Senior Member

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    Who know ,someday if they don't make it on there own,Cat might buy into there busniess and they will be making them for Cat,with there cheaper labor.

    Also who knows:confused: maybe the China factory is hoping that happens also.

    Who know:rolleyes: cyrstal ball anyone:beatsme:usa
     
  6. Ray Welsh

    Ray Welsh Banned

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    I have to agree with RKO above. Asians are improving quality as we speak.
    I needed a large swamp dozer in 1982 for a niche hire market & purchased a low hour D7G LGP from Japan. The manufacturer was Caterpillar Mitsubishi and all parts were the same as US manufactured machines except mine had self cleaning plates. (Triangular in shape, not just wider conventional plates).
    Blade width was 4metres to cover the tracks and it could push as much as a D8K. More in bad ground!!
    I kept this machine for 16yrs, a record for me, as it was always in high demand. Finally sold it with over 30,000hrs when the work changed direction.
    Swamp work is now done with excavator/dump truck combos. Scheduled rebuilds kept it very reliable, in spite of its Asian heritage.....C ya........Ray
     
  7. RKO

    RKO Well-Known Member

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    Cat better look out the Chinese might own Cat. Last week I heard, China has more money invested and on loan in the United States now than any other country. And China is one of the fastest growing country in the world. China's quality control was nothing a couple years ago and improving quickly.

    Look at how many Cat machines are made in countries other than the United States and they are great machines. Why do you think Cat has machines built were they do? Cheap labor, better quality and cheaper shipping. Even the machines that are assembled in the U.S. most parts are built some were else and ship here. The Japanese have taken over the Auto, Electronic and Construction industry. From running that machine in Florida I would not be scared to buy one. The components are the same as replacement parts that you can buy for you U.S. built machine.
     
  8. DaveC

    DaveC Member

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    Hi chaps, just to mention, Chinese CATS were built under licence in collaberation with Caterpillar. The most popular variants being the mid sized
    D6 and D7. Two such companies to mention involved were/are QINGHAI CONSTRUCTION MACHINERY PLANT which built under licence the D7G ast the QT-200T for their home market or the QTD7G for export. The other company, PENG PU MACHINE BUILDING PLANT known as SHANGHAI built the D6D under licence as the PD6Y using the CAT 3306 engine and in fact the parts between the genuine D6D and the PD6Y were known as interchangeable.

    The high sprocket market CATS built under licence in China were the SHEHWA/XUANUA. Two model types were produced which were the SD7 based on the CAT D7H with power provided by a Chongqing-Cummins NT855C280 6-Pot, the other being the TYH-220 powered by the Weifang (Licenced Steyr) WD615T6 engine.

    Our Chinese friends also produced Komatsu Dozers under licence with variations of power units.

    Contrary to suggestions of poor build, I assume they had to have some standard of quality if they were to be granted build licences from both CAT and KOMATSU..

    Maybe my friend DEAS may help further? as a good few were exported to Australia through an agency.

    Politically, the licences were bought in two stages. The first, took place in 1979 when the Chinese Government bought licences from KOMATSU for production of the D80/D85 D155, later being extended to the D60/D65. In 1986, the Chinese Government then purchased the licence from CATERPILLAR to produce locally, the D6D D7G and later, the high sprocket D7H.

    Hope this is of help.

    Regards, Dave:
     
  9. PETE379

    PETE379 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty interesting facts, Thanks
     
  10. drewtam

    drewtam Member

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    See my post in the excavator forum.
    https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=2045&page=5
    It sounds like you bought a SCM machine. Although you can't be sure without checking the serial with a Cat dealer.
     
  11. bolt thrower

    bolt thrower Well-Known Member

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    If these machines are built 10 times better than a Cat and 10 times cheaper, I still wouldn't consider buying one. I think alot of U.S. consumers have forgotten that China is a communist country, and its government harbors some anti U.S. sentiments. More and more American companies are farming out their manufacturing to China, and sending China alot of U.S. dollars. And with the U.S. economy now floundering, and China holding ALOT of U.S. dollars, it seems like we are truly flirting with disaster. At the rate we are going, eventually either China or the Arabs (or both) will own the United States. So I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not mad or surprised that China is building these things, rather I'm disapointed that any red blooded Americans would consider buying one. Anyone agree?
     
  12. telescooper

    telescooper Well-Known Member

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    I agree!:usa I always look to see where a product is made, and buy American. During the cold war the Russians didn't do business with us. If the Chinese were true commies they wouldn't want nothing to do with us.
     
  13. Countryboy

    Countryboy Senior Member

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    But that's the point...if you're buying Cat, or most any machine for that matter, you are buying from these countries. Maybe not directly, but each machine sold put money in other countries pockets. Try finding one machine that doesn't have atleast one part that says "Made in China".

    To buy something truely American nowadays, you have to find something that was not only completely assembled in the US, but also completely manufactured in the US, all parts included. Those products are becoming few and far between.
     
  14. bolt thrower

    bolt thrower Well-Known Member

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    Your'e right C.B. But I'll pay more for something at least partially U.S. made as long as there's money in my account and breath in my lungs! If suddenly sales of Kopy Kats leave real Cats in the dust, then Caterpillar will have no choice but to start building everything overseas. (or Kopy Fords, or Kopy kenworths or what ever) If we give up, they win! Don't forget, the last world super power, Rome, fell from the inside!
     
  15. RKO

    RKO Well-Known Member

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    Cats

    The problem with buying something that is made in the United States is most machines are made some place else and maybe they are assembled in the U.S. Name a machine that is fully made and assembled in the U.S.??Even if you buy something from a "U.S. company a lot of the time the money is funneled to an off shore account to beat the U.S.Government.
    Second if you are competing in the work place a business needs to look at the bottom line. Cat along with every business that is going to survive has to do that and if that includes buying from a manufacturer other than the U.S. it will happen. Next the U.S is fastly losing out on being a world leader in manufacturing. People think they are to good to do a manufacturing job. People want a white collar job or a service job and want a large salary right away, they don't want to work for a company for years.
    I hate to tell you where Kenworth has been made for years, Canada and now they are also being built in Mexico also. My 1998 W900 Kenworth was built in Canada and my 2000 Pete was built in Mexico. I just looked at a 2008 Kenworth and it was built in Mexico.
     
  16. bobcat ron

    bobcat ron Banned

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    Bobcat Excavators models 322-341 Skidsteer Compact track loader models 453-S330....Only ones that bring up and "Made in the USA" reference..........and they are still crap!!!!! :Banghead
     
  17. RKO

    RKO Well-Known Member

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    They have a Kubota engine I think and I think they have a Linde Hydr. Pump. Both not made in the U.S.A.
     
  18. bobcat ron

    bobcat ron Banned

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    Close enough.
     
  19. DaveC

    DaveC Member

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    I still think Cat products are the best around and believe these Cat Copies are not a threat to homeland production. In due respect, the licences that Cat sold were mainly whats known as obsolete production runs, eg, D7G, D6D and the advancement of technologies Cat are producing today are still years ahead of the Chinese. Still, in this day and age, Cat is a global player and sub contracts componants worldwide. I lifted the hood of a Mini Cat 360 excavator and found a Perkins built Cat engine!
    However, I mourn what has passed and will always miss names like International Harvester and Allis Chalmers as prime examples of two favorite Earthmover manufacturers. How I loved those TD`s and HD`s...sigh...
    I have to look at the Dressta site to see what has metermorphasised from the International TD range and the Allis HD memory is all but lost. Oh well, if thats progress, I will dwell on history.

    Regards, Dave:
     
  20. bolt thrower

    bolt thrower Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Canada or Mexico pose much if any threat to the U.S. The biggest threat Mexico poses to us is hordes of hungry mexicans pouring into our country looking for work. If we bought everything from Mexico that we now buy from China, Mexicos economy would be fixed, and mexicans would stay in Mexico! Mexicans aren't COMMUNISTS either! From a transportation standpoint it makes more sense to buy from Mex. and Canada because they are geographically closer to us. As far as the U.S. sending MORE jobs out of country,to any country, that has more to do with workers and consumers than anything else. Me, as a consumer, I will do as much as I possibly can to keep jobs IN COUNTRY. :usa
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2008