1. Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!
  2. ALL NEW MEMBERS READ THIS FIRST!! Thank you for joining Heavy Equipment Forums! If you are new to forums we communicate with "Threads", please search our threads to see if your topic may have already been answered and if not then click "Post New Thread" in the appropriate forum. This will allow all of our members to see your question and give you the best chance to be answered. After you've made a number of posts you will graduate to Full Member status where you'll see a few more privileges. Following these guidelines will help make this the best resource for heavy equipment on the net. Thanks for joining us and I hope you enjoy your stay!!

komatsu pc210 VGT turbo 6.7 cummins

Discussion in 'Excavators' started by davecampbell, Dec 5, 2021.

  1. davecampbell

    davecampbell Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Messages:
    348
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    My Komatsu excavator is low on boost pressure and the more i learn about this VGT turbo the more I think the system is much more complicated than it needs to be. Id like to throw the vgt off and put on a traditional turbo. Can I just plug off the oil lines that control it or would I need to link them together to let the oil flow?
     
  2. fastline

    fastline Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2011
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    OK
    Someone might say different but I think the ECU is looking for variable geometry position data. Even if not, the maps are going to be designed for that so going back may create some issues in RPM management due to lag.

    You should be able to disconnect the VGT actuator arm and confirm it functions right. If so, chase the actuator side of it. VGT has been on the 6.7 and the Duramax for a long time without much issue. I recommend fixing the problem.
     
  3. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    4,762
    Occupation:
    Mechanic
    Location:
    Will county Illinois
    Try looking for vetechs thread on this exact same issue. Then try changing your oil with a quality oil and new filters.
     
    BigWrench55, mg2361 and davecampbell like this.
  4. fastline

    fastline Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2011
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    OK
    Just as additional info, I am very involved with electronics and if your Ex runs the same actuator as the trucks, they put a PCB (circuit board) right on the turbo. Not in my lifetime would I ever design a system that way. We measure electronics life by a few criteria and temp exposure is one of them. It might be worth you pulling it and having a VERY experienced EE comb the circuit to see if there is an obvious issue. Off the cuff, due to the environment, I would be looking for failed solder joints and cooked capacitors.

    Again, this is assuming the issue is the actuator and not the linkage system in the turbo. That needs to move free.
     
    59 North likes this.
  5. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    4,762
    Occupation:
    Mechanic
    Location:
    Will county Illinois
    There is no external linkage. It is hydraulically controlled. There are inlet screens at the turbo and at the EGR. This has all been laid out, in detail. Like 3 or 4 pages worth iirc.
     
    BigWrench55 and mg2361 like this.
  6. fastline

    fastline Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2011
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    OK
    Obviously I don't understand your system to help you but I will say if there is a position sensor of any type on the turbo, that will be a problem in a delete as the ECU will want that data. I will bow out and see if someone with direct experience with them can help. No sense in me providing unrelated info.
     
  7. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    4,762
    Occupation:
    Mechanic
    Location:
    Will county Illinois
    Lets start at the beginning. Do you have error codes related to VGT, EGR, or anything along those lines? What are you basing your theory of low boost on? Actual numbers or not readily being able to hear the turbo spool up? Do you have the service manual and know what a PM clinic is? Are you lacking breakout force or lifting abilities? Cuz, I know, our Komatsu guru, John C will be along soon and i don't think anybody on here regularly, is as sharp on these as he is. He'll probably want the same answers.
     
    mg2361 and BigWrench55 like this.
  8. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    12,516
    Occupation:
    Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
    Location:
    Northwest
    Gee, thanks for the build up. I hope I can live up to the expectations.

    All the questions above are spot on. I’m guessing that you are perceiving a performance problem? Boost pressure is only attainable at full load so the first question from me would be have you done any cycle time checks? Boom up times should be around four seconds. What have you been able to check from the monitor panel? Do you know how to get into the diagnostic sections?

    Turbo chargers have two or three failure modes. Bad air filters, dirty engine oil and over speed. I don’t know squat about these fancy new turbos but do remember all kinds of issues with the waste gate units of a few years ago. I don’t understand why this level of technology would be necessary on what is very close to being a generator engine. Even so I never tried to second guess the engineers. Might be fun to watch. Keep us updated.
     
    59 North, mg2361 and BigWrench55 like this.
  9. fastline

    fastline Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2011
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    OK
    John, the VGT turbo deal was primarily targeting emissions. As you know, when you throw the coal with a heavy load, that is when things get sooty. Getting the turbo lag reduced helps get combustion quality in compliance faster. I would guess because an Ex is constantly subjected to light-to-heavy loading, and auto idle downs, that the VGT could be beneficial....

    Also some perks on the performance side for sure! In general, a designer can select more aggressive turbo geometry (higher boost) and still get good spool up.

    I would generally agree and question the reliability of VGT for an industrial piece where reliability must come before everything.
     
    BigWrench55 likes this.
  10. BigWrench55

    BigWrench55 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2018
    Messages:
    1,178
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Here's something else to consider. If the ports on the egr differential pressure sensor are clogged. It will effect the vgt operation. The computer takes egr data and uses a algorithm to adjust the vgt. This is true for any engine with egr and vgt turbos.
     
    LACHAU, John C. and mg2361 like this.
  11. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    12,516
    Occupation:
    Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
    Location:
    Northwest
    Soot production was never an issue with Komatsu engines. The high injection pressures for the time made Nox the issue and reason for the Cummins clone motors in North America. I am a bit surprised to hear that Komatsu might still be using Cummins. I haven’t seen that around here.
     
    BigWrench55 likes this.
  12. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    4,762
    Occupation:
    Mechanic
    Location:
    Will county Illinois
    Oh yeah, Komatsu and Cummins are in bed together for the long haul. All the smaller power plants are 4&6 cyl Cummins but they have goofy identities. SAA6D107E1 and so on, which i think translates to 6.7 liter B series with bastardized intake and exhaust and fuel system.
     
  13. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    12,516
    Occupation:
    Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
    Location:
    Northwest
    I’ve been seeing the 95 series Komatsu engines in the Dash 10 series out here. Komatsu and Cummins have been joint partners since the sixties. I seem to recall the B Cummins being a 5.9.
     
    Vetech63 and BigWrench55 like this.
  14. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    4,762
    Occupation:
    Mechanic
    Location:
    Will county Illinois
    Yeah , 6BT8i>> series was 5.9. With the introduction of emissions they had to increase displacement to 6.7 just to maintain torque and horsepower. The intake and exhaust restrictions were choking that badly. Between heavy duty pick ups, yard mules and any other piece of equipment that ever had the 5.9 as a power plant the power couldn't be maintained with the existing configuration. As the old saying goes, "there's no replacement for displacement. "
     
  15. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2007
    Messages:
    12,516
    Occupation:
    Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
    Location:
    Northwest
    Good to know. The B series was underpowered in the excavators and wheel loaders as well. When they came out, we got a ton of complaints. There were also lots of weird issues that came up all the time as well. No power, lots of smoke, bad or mis adjusted fuel pumps, lots of blow by, sloppy rocker arm centers, worn rocker arms where they contact the valve heads. The C series were worse as they were too small to carry the machines they were installed in. PC300 excavators and all in the wheel loader lines were just crap. Then they put L10/M11 in PC400 and about killed their business. I did an inspection on one for the dealership or Komatsu because there was some distrust about the stories from the customer. The engines were just not up to the duty cycle required of excavators and wheel loaders.
     
  16. fastline

    fastline Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2011
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    OK
    I don't think there is any question that emissions crap has taken bullet proof reliable power plants and turned them into drama queens with no legs or tits. On the engineering side, I defend designers a bit because the engineers truly know how to build a bullet proof system, but the emissions crap becomes a compromise and they well know it. I do appreciate the little "push" the EPA has given towards tech advancement, but I think the quest for fuel efficiency alone could have driven that! Look at turbine engine competition. Cutting edge engineering is driving the limits of efficiency.

    I don't know too much about Volvo, but all I ever hear about is their injectors. Always something to do with injectors. Not sure if they are pushing it on rail pressures or what.
     
    Vetech63 and davecampbell like this.
  17. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    4,762
    Occupation:
    Mechanic
    Location:
    Will county Illinois
    We're getting way off topic, until the OP shares what he's up against, let's continue.
    Volvo, in comparison to Cummins runs low rail pressure. Their injectors have zero tolerance for water intrusion. On the big bores, they switched over to conical seats, nothing but problems there. You have to change the cup each time you do an injector. That's ridiculous.
     
  18. LACHAU

    LACHAU Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    707
    Location:
    Saigon, Vietnam
    I agree with the opinion of Mr.Fastline.
    The Komatsu -10 has up to 3 controllers, which communicate with each other by means of a "can-bus" network. If you replace it with a traditional turbo, the ECU will report an error and even the pump controller, monitor controller will report an error resulting in the machine not being able to work!

    ScreenShot_20211207192156.png
     
  19. LACHAU

    LACHAU Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    707
    Location:
    Saigon, Vietnam
    I also have to agree with you on this point.
    When modifying the turbo, we also need to consider the handling of the EGR unit.
    The reason is simple, if the EGR is open, surely the turbo speed will be reduced, leading to a decrease in engine power.
     
    Vetech63, John C., mg2361 and 2 others like this.
  20. davecampbell

    davecampbell Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2012
    Messages:
    348
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    I really hope that i can find a way to put a traditional turbo and get rid of the goofy EGR too. Not a fan of piping exhaust back into the intake. Motors run better on clean fresh air in my opinion.