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Just bought a Lull 644! How much does it weigh?

Discussion in 'Forklifts/Telehandlers' started by joestewart, Feb 13, 2010.

  1. Speedpup

    Speedpup Senior Member

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    Well just curious how's it going?
     
  2. joestewart

    joestewart Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for checking in. I have not got her home yet. The low-boy that I hired has been busy with other previously arranged heavy hauls. He is going to bring it to my place this coming saturday.

    In the meantime, I'm clearing some space out of the barn. This thing will be kept under roof from now on (previous owners kept it outside).

    I've been trying to figure out how the hydraulic fluid got so badly contaminated with water. I could use some tips on clearing all the water out of the system.

    I've also been studying on how to repair hydraulic cylinders. I've never dismantled one before. That forward tilt cylinder will be the first one that I go through.

    One of the vendors I contacted told me that my machine is a 1992 model, based upon serial number.

    The seller never found the ignition key. Is this a universal type key that I can buy off ebay or the Lull parts dealer? I saw a couple of auctions that mentioned Lull Keys.
     
  3. Speedpup

    Speedpup Senior Member

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    You can get a standard key switch in an auto parts store.

    You will have to drain the whole system all the cylinders, hoses, and tank if it is that bad. Most cylinders I have found are easier to leave one end on the machine when you do them. Two people make it easier for sure. I got a few good tips here so when ready yell. Hardest part is usually getting them apart. I bought a huge pipe wrench and a 6' pipe for leverage. There are special tools to remove the piston. It was back ordered and near 400 bucks. What I find helpful is to take pictures as you take it apart so you can look at the seals if you forget how they go. Parts book for mine is not to detailed.

    Tapping the end caps was the best tip I got here to take them apart ballpein ll taps and patience it saves a ton of work. I'll look for the threads when I ask here. I have some pictures if I get my other computer fixed for you.

    I would try not to run the system to mush as you don't want to hurt the hydraulic pump if possible. Can you drain and do all the cylinders in one operation?
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2010
  4. joestewart

    joestewart Well-Known Member

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    OK, I finally got the machine transported this week and I've had a chance to look over the various components. Here's my questions:

    1. What is the aftermarket part# for the transmission filter? See photo. Mine is a spin on type, but there are no markings on the external surface.

    2. What is the aftermarket part# for the in-tank hydraulic filter? See photo. Mine has no identifying numbers on it.

    3. The frame tilt cylinder does not work at all (no visible response whatsoever) when the lever is acuated, although I notice that both the inlet hydraulic hose and the outlet hydraulic hose will jerk when the cylinder is actuated (I assume that this means fluid is moving, but is bypassing the cylinder). Could this be a check valve problem? I notice that there are aluminum rectangular boxes (check valves?) through which the hydraulic fluid must pass, one on the top of the frame tilt cylinder and the other on the inside of the frame, near the bottom of the tilt cylinder. There is a single removable bolt on the outside of these boxes. I removed this bolt and there is a spring underneath, but I cannot see anything else in there. Is there a removable piston at the bottom of that spring that could be causing the tilt cylinder to fail?

    4. The rear tilt cylinder has rust particles on cylinder rod. I treated them with navel jelly three times and rubbed them with brass wool. But even after this, I can still feel some "bumps" when I run my fingers across them. Can I use fine crocus cloth on these spots or are there any other treatments that I can use?

    5. The hydraulic fluid is milky - see photo. What would be the best approach to get all of the water out of the system? That hydraulic fluid is expensive!

    6. Does anyone have a lube order for this machine? Mine has been obliterated.

    I have a service manual on order. Maybe some of these questions will be addressed when I get it. Thanks for any input! J.Stewart
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Speedpup

    Speedpup Senior Member

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    You need to drain the entire machine :eek: All the lines, cylinders, tank, and brakes as they probably have the same supply from the hydraulic tank. Filter # I can get tomorrow. Looks like my 844 and looks like you have a baldwin on there now.

    The Arlon filter I have never found after market and it is probably 80+ I have not bought one in a while.

    they probably have the hydraulic filter here http://www.harlowfilter.com/index.php?main_page=index&manufacturers_id=295 google is great!

    Much metal on the magnet in the hydraulic filter? There is usually a little fuzz on them.

    Decent parts house could probably match the tranny filter easy. If I go to my machines I'll get the number. I think I have one in the truck also to look.

    I'll see what I can fax in the morning.C-3 fluid I think is Allison spec. here I found this http://www.finalube.com/Product_Data_Files/Fina_Branded_PDF_Files/Allison_C3.pdf

    http://reliancelube.tradeindia.com/Exporters_Suppliers/Exporter13153.327036/ALLISON-C-310-330.html look on Dextron 3 or 4 label and it usually says meets C-3.

    Post a picture of the tilt cylinder. If real bad you may have to get it refinished for the seal to last any length of time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2010
  6. joestewart

    joestewart Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Speedpup. I will probably start draining the system this weekend. I'm going to prop the boom up on top of a storage container so that I can work underneath it safely and disconnect the hoist cylinder. I will drain out all the hoses and tank as recommended.

    Where exactly is the arlon filter? Is this the same filter as the "in-tank hydraulic filter"?

    Thanks for the link to Harlow filter. I contacted them and although they don't have a cross reference for the Lull part number for the in-tank hydraulic filter, they asked me to email the dimensions to them and they will see if they have a match. I believe that my old filter has a Donaldson logo on it.

    Thank you for the explanation with regards to "C-3" transmission fluid. I believe that the Dexron/Mercon fluid that I used meets that specification.

    I did not see any metal particles on those magnets - hope this is a good omen.

    I will photograph the rear tilt cylinder rod this saturday and post.

    I got my service manual today! Time to study up! I can't wait to get this thing up and running!
     
  7. bobcatmechanic

    bobcatmechanic Senior Member

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    be very carfull removing check valves in the frame stabilization cylinder i have not worked on many tele handlers but while a 723 bobcat i believe was in the shop another mechanic was messing with it because it was stuck or would not self level. anyways he removed the relief valve to check and another mechanic was next to him looked at the relief valve with his head over the top moved and about that time it came out like a rocket with a big BOOM. hit the ceiling denting the foam padding and flew across the shop so stand very clear if you remove the relief valves if you don't know the exact working of them. Don't want to here of you getting hurt or loosing an eye
     
  8. bobcatmechanic

    bobcatmechanic Senior Member

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    you could flush the system a few times with cheap oil and then fill with a better oil to run with changing the filters with each flush. on the bobcats we would drain them trough the aux couplers till you just here the pump wine and shut it down it does not get all the oil out each time but about 90% of it.
     
  9. Speedpup

    Speedpup Senior Member

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    if the pump is whining could you not wipe out the pump?:eek:

    Not sure there is cheap oil any where unless you had some used stuff that was not bad.
     
  10. Speedpup

    Speedpup Senior Member

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    don't forget the planataries and diffs. Filling the diffs is a PITA so I got an elbow to thread in where the 3/8" drive drain plug is and then put a 4-6" piece of threaded PVC on it. Then just fill the pipe when it is upright. You can do the same for the diffs just a larger 90* elbow.

    arlon is the one in the tank. I would take pictures of your filter with a ruler next to it L X W X H hole diameter. Good if nothing is on the magnets as long as they are still magnetic.

    Are brakes on the driveline? Are they enclosed wet system?
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
  11. joestewart

    joestewart Well-Known Member

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    Bobcatmechanic: Thanks for the heads up on that danger involving the check valve on the frame tilt cylinder. I was reading the service manual last night and I saw that exact same warning regarding that particular cylinder. I did not realize this when I was fooling with them last weekend. Guess I lucked out - there was pressure present and I allowed it to bleed slowly before I backed out the plug all the way.

    I also noticed that the service manual contains a protocol for flushing the hydraulic system in cases of contamination. That will help out a lot.

    The gentleman at Harlow filter says he has the in-tank hydraulic filter for $56.49. He would not give me the part number but said that it was a Luberfiner brand. I looked on the Luberfiner web site and they give a Luberfiner part# of LH22033 for the hydraulic filter, but I cannot find any other vendors that carry a comparable filter (anyone have access to some good hydraulic filter cross reference charts?). Just trying to save a buck here. I'm not thrilled about paying $65 (incl shipping) for one filter!

    I'm attaching two photos to address the brake question. I think I have the wet brakes. One photo shows the brake line that was disconnected by the previous owner - I guess because it was leaking. The other shows the emergency brake. Notice the hydraulic oil that leaked all over the place (from the leaking hoist cylinder).

    Question: What is the type of oil that you put in your planetaries? I noticed in the manual they call it "P09926 Wheel End Oil" - Never heard of this. Is there anything comparable?

    I went to the local Sam's Club last night and found out they no longer carry hydraulic oil - will have to shop around for another source.

    I have a lead on the carcass of a Lull 400 forklift - just a chassis with 4 tires, the axles, drivetrain and chrysler gas engine (the acutal forklift part has been cut off and is long gone). I was wondering if any of the axle parts are shared in common with those used on the 644. I was thinking of buying it just to get those four 13.00 x 24 tires/rims - the asking price is worth it!
     

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  12. joestewart

    joestewart Well-Known Member

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  13. Speedpup

    Speedpup Senior Member

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    65 for that filter is a decent deal Lull wants probably a 100+ planataries you can use 90-140 gear oil and Kendall fiction modifier. http://www.riversidegear.com/categories/products/product-722.html

    http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail.aspx?R=VAR043_0006411647

    what was the saving of buying 55 gallons vs 5 gallon pails? I have not priced it in years. Hatch the hydraulic filter yet? I will be at my machines tomorrow if not. Look similar to yours and mine. http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Detail.aspx?R=FIL1120_0212756609

    You will need a way to transfer the 55 GA drum oil to the tank.

    Learn all you grease fitting postions
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2010
  14. joestewart

    joestewart Well-Known Member

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    Hey Speedpup, did you have a chance to look on your transmission filter and see if there was a brand and part number on it?

    The NAPA links that you gave in the previous post were not working for me. If you could give me the NAPA part number of the item you are pointing out, that would be very helpful.

    Thanks for the advice on the friction modifier. I will be ordering some of that stuff, but I wonder if it is sold locally in the same or different brand.

    I did some research and concluded that there really is not a significant difference in the 55gallon drum vs. the 5 gallon pails. I will go with the 5 gallon pails to make handling easier. But I still don't know which specific fluid to buy. I'm looking at NAPA part #NHF 85905 vs. NHF 85805.
     
  15. Speedpup

    Speedpup Senior Member

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    try to match your filter to this FIL 1202 NAPA measure yours to what is below

    Gasket I.D. (Inches) : 2.963"
    Gasket I.D. (mm) : 75.26 mm
    Gasket O.D. (Inches) : 3.431"
    Gasket O.D.(mm) : 87.15 mm
    Gasket Thickness (Inches) : .218"
    Gasket Thickness (mm) : 5.54 mm
    Height (Inches) : 7.803"
    Height (mm) : 198.2 mm
    Hydraulic Filter Style : Spin-On Transmission Filter
    O.D. (Inches) : 3.698"
    O.D. (mm) : 93.93 mm
    Thread Size (Inches) : 1 1/2-16


    Fluid I use the 46


    Hydraulic Fluid - All-Purpose Tractor, ISO 46; 5 GAL
    Product Line: Valvoline Oil - Regular States
    Part Number: VAL 770
    Price:
    Availability: This part can only be purchased from your local NAPA Auto Parts store.
    Features & Benefits Blended w/ Highly Refined Napthenic Basestocks & An Additive Package That Provides Excellent Anti-Wear Protection & Inhibits Rusting & Corrosion. An Antifoamant Has Also Been Added To Suppress Foaming & Air Entrainment.
    Warranty No Warranty, Expressed or Implied
    Attributes API Ratings : ISO 46
    Container Size : 5 GAL
    Hydraulic Fluid Application : Are Available In Three ISO Grades (32,46, & 68) To Satisfy The Varying Requirements Of Vane, Gear & Piston Pumps. Do Not Use These Oils In Ammonia Compressors, As Heat Transfer Oil, w/ Silver Bearings Or At Prolonged Termperatures Above 200 Deg F.
    Manufacturer : Valvoline

    Probably why I never bought 55 gallon drums $same$ I did price it years ago
    and I guess came to the same conclusion as you not worth it.


    Don't forget fuel filter. Is it glass on the side of the motor? Forgot if you had JDeere.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2010
  16. Speedpup

    Speedpup Senior Member

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    My hydraulic filter is BT372-MPG Baldwin I found one in my gang box I keep on the truck with all my job tools. Never went to the yard yet. Curious if it is the one I picked on NAPA let me know. Hey if you have time post the procedure for flushing a Lull System thanks

    john
     
  17. Fisherman

    Fisherman Member

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    Here is a list of filters to Lull 844 -89 maby it is the same for 644?
     

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  18. joestewart

    joestewart Well-Known Member

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    Fisherman, that list helped a lot! The in-tank hydraulic filter appears to be the same on the 644, so there appear to be two aftermarket filters available (from Donaldson and Baldwin). I'm going with this one:

    http://www.adiesel.com/baldwinfilters/PT9188.html

    The tranny filter appears to be the same also.

    So OK, today I got a chance to look over the machine some more. One of the planetaries appears to be in need of service. There is a lot of play. When we moved the forklift off the trailer and brought it to the barn, I noticed that the right rear tire always tried to steer a different direction. So today I jacked it up off the ground and noted quite a bit of wobbling when I gripped the tire with my hands and moved it side to side. Question that I really dont' want to ask: How much in terms of dollars will this cost me? Does anyone have the parts page in the manual that deals with the planetaries? Where would I go to get used planetary parts?

    Next question: I tried to disconnect the front carriage tilt cylinder from the carriage. There is a huge pin holding the end of the cylinder rod to the carriage. I tried to pound out this pin with a giant sledge hammer and the thing would not budge! I didn't pound too many times because I was worried about mushrooming the end of the pin. Question: How do you remove these pins? Thanks Joe Stewart
     
  19. Fisherman

    Fisherman Member

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    I think the problem is the wheelbearing.I had the same on mine 844.It is easy to fix,you only have to shim the bearing.It took me 3-4 hours.i put new oil-seals,bushings and o-rings for the brakepiston. I do not remember the cost for it but it is not over 100 dollar.If you have to change bearings the cost will of course rise.If you PM me your e-mail adress or fax number i will try to send the pages you need for this work.
     
  20. Speedpup

    Speedpup Senior Member

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    Some times the pins bend and they are real hard to get out. They can wear and also have a ridge so you need to find that sweet spot where it is free. How about a electric chopping gun and hammer it with an old chisel on the end? Post in the general section they will have more ideas.