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John Deere power unit fuel issue. Pump?

old-iron-habit

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Today I a friend and I went to help a fellow try to start a 6 cylinder JD power unit on his slasher that had shut down while idling. Serial number is RTO6068D52173. No model number on the engine that we could find. He said the engine sounded like it had run out of fuel so he added fuel and installed a new fuel filling it first. He noted that the old filter was still full of fuel when he removed it. Of course he told us that late today after all else failed. He never could get it to start. Today we tried the following steps. First we opened the bleeder on the filter and pumped the hand lever on the primary engine driven pump. Fuel flowed out on the first stroke so the filter was full of fuel. We then opened the incoming fuel line at the injector pump and hand pumped fuel to there. We then cranked it over and cracked three injector lines to bleed. We never got anywhere. It will fire instantly on a sip of ether. It has a low oil shut off and a electric solonoid on the injector pump. To eliminate and chance of the low oil pressure sensor being bad we connected a 12 volt "hot" wire to the injector pump solonoid and could hear it click. Still no fuel, just a constant wisp of smoke. We opened the bleeder again at the filter and spun the engine over. Fuel flowed out put not under enough pressure to speak of. It just ran out without any pressure but it seemed to be plenty of fuel to run on. Is the primary diaphragm pump supposed to supply a certain amount of pressure to the injector pump for it to work. I have not had to work on a JD before so at a lost. Thanks in advance.

Picture of pump and controls.
There is a tiny black button switch that pulls in or out on the control panel that I think might be the oil pressure bypass, but no fuel in either position. I think it should require power to the pump solonoid to run, please correct me if I'm wrong.
 

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greggagne

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oregon
on the side of the injector pump there should be an inspection plate with two bolts in it. remove it and turn engine to tdc number one and see if there are two short lines showing. if there isn't the injector pump is bad
 

d9gdon

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I had problems with one in a 200C LC excavator within 100 hours of an engine rebuild. The engine model is a 6068, which is a 6 cylinder 6.8L engine.

I can't tell if that's the same pump as was on mine, they used about 4 or 5 different pumps just on the ones in a 200C excavator. The complete serial number is needed when ordering parts, seems like the RTO or the D specifies how it's set up.

Anyway, if it's computer controlled you've burnt up the pump's shut off valve. IIRC, it only gets 4.5 - 9 volts not full battery volts.

On mine, a tip blew off of one of the pencil type injectors(right after I had the injectors rebuilt) and since the pump is a rotary pump it wouldnt start. A rotary pump doesn't deliver fuel to dedicated injectors, it acts like a gear pump supplying pressurized fuel to ALL the injectors and since the tip was blown off the one, the pressure couldn't make the other ones spray. The pressure was all used up on the blown tip. I think I'm remembering that right how it was explained to me. I put a new injector in it and it started right up.
 
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Delmer

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"sounded like it had run out of fuel" Does that mean it missed and surged a couple times before dying? or it died suddenly with no sound?

Did you get ANY fuel or bubbles out of the cracked injector lines when you had the hot wire to the injector pump? The injector pump needs power and fuel only. The transfer pressure is 2-4 PSI for a similar Deere, not super critical.

IF there's nothing coming out of the cracked injector lines with fuel coming out of the top of the pump and a clicking solenoid then take greg's advice to check the timing window.
 

old-iron-habit

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There is no computer control that i can see. The throttle is manual and the only wire to the pump is the one in the picture which I believe is the solenoid. There is no ECM mounted anywhere. We got no fuel out of the cracked injector lines which we cracked at the injector end. Where we got fuel at the injector pump was at the infeed fuel line at the right end of the pump. The center fuel line you can see in the picture of the pump is from the fuel filter. I did not try to open anything else on the pump itself. I did not want to mess anything up as I know little about these JD pumps. It might be tough but can someone point out what the bleeder is on the injector pump picture. I was not there when it was thought to run out of fuel. I'm not sure that anyone was right by it as they said it was setting there idleing. The owner is in Oregon undergoing cancer treatment and we are helping him get it running to move it to a more secure place for him. We are going back Sunday to try again. I plan on taking a electric fuel pump along and insert in the rubber line right by the fuel tank to check to insure we are not sucking air and to insure he primary pump is putting enough out.

I appreciate the help and will keep you posted.

EDIT: As I ponder this I dought the primary pump is putting out 2 to 4 lbs. It only has some flow when cranked, not noticeable pressure at all. When I put 5 PSI of pressure in my old Cat fuel tanks to bleed them the fuel literally spurts out of the bleed points when I crack them.
 
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cutting edge

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Going by everything you have said, I suspect that the solenoid in the pump has failed. They are replaceable,but the screws on the top cover like to break when you try to remove them.

Your local Deere shop should be able to supply the parts,or any reputable stanadyne repair shop
 

old-iron-habit

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Going by everything you have said, I suspect that the solenoid in the pump has failed. They are replaceable,but the screws on the top cover like to break when you try to remove them.

Your local Deere shop should be able to supply the parts,or any reputable stanadyne repair shop

That sounds viable also. In looking at the picture does the whole pump top come off to get to it. Anything to watch for while removing it? Injection pumps concern me a bit after reading all the horror stories folks have with them. I find my way around the fuel systems on the old 2 stroke Detroits and old Caterpillars but I do not much experience on this modern stuff.
 
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Delmer

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The only bleeder is through the fuel return hose on the top of the pump. You don't have to bleed it like other pumps, it saves cranking to use the priming lever though. 2 PSI is nothing, if the transfer pump is pumping anything, and the tank isn't full of crud (did you try to drain anything out of the tank?) then it should start and idle fine, might starve under load though.

This was a modern pump 40 years ago OIH, don't worry about it too much. Yes the whole cover comes off, but I wouldn't do that first if the solenoid is clicking for you. Cutting edge: do these solenoids get weak and still click?

You can test the transfer pump by experimentation if you want to be sure it's working, or diagnose the upstream/downstream fuel system. Use the priming lever if you have one, or cranking it if there's no priming lever, disconnect the output at the pump and pump a few strokes, then disconnect the inlet and run a hose into a container of diesel and pump a few more strokes after it primes, you should get the same basic feel from the lever and the same squirts from the pump. Less resistance on the lever means the suction was plugged (or your bucket is much higher than the fuel level in the tank)

Then connect the outlet back up so it's pumping to the filter and injection pump, it should pump up pressure in a few strokes and take the resistance off of the lever.
 
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Sigurd

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If I suspect trouble with diesel supply from tank or feed pump I disconnect the pipe between feed pump and injection pump at feed pump end, then attach the tube from a small suction pump (similar to a grease gun) filled with diesel, then apply pressure to the pump and crank at same time, quite simple but it works.
 

old-iron-habit

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If I suspect trouble with diesel supply from tank or feed pump I disconnect the pipe between feed pump and injection pump at feed pump end, then attach the tube from a small suction pump (similar to a grease gun) filled with diesel, then apply pressure to the pump and crank at same time, quite simple but it works.

Great idea. I have one of them that I use topping fluids in rearends, etc. I will take it along.
 

old-iron-habit

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Today I took a 2gal can of fuel and using an electric fuel pimp connected it to the intake side of the primary pump. I also removed the new fuel/water filter that had been installed and found diluted water in it. After replacing we got really good air free clean fuel with mildly squirtable pressure at the injection pump fuel intake line. I never could get fuel to push through to the return line that comes out the top. The solonoid clicks buts I wonder if it is just the contacts clicking and the solonoid is not moving. It just does not have that hearty "thunk" that I am used to on most solonoids but just a click like a switch moving. If stuck would they still click? I was going to pull the injection pump top off to get the solonoid out but am at a loss on how to get the right end of the cover is secured. There are two small allen head screws on the left end where the soloniod is located but how is it secured on the right end. There is a small screw sized recessed hole near the right end in the middle next to the return line with a soft cover stuck in it. It reminds me of the old style non adjustable carb jets plug. You can see it in picture 3 just to the right of the overflow line. I did not pry it out but wonder if it could be a screw under it? I'll post a couple more closeups off the pump top. Thanks.
 

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Heavey Metal

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Pull the fitting out of the pump (from the return line)

It is a check valve and is prolly stopped up

Likely pump debris
 

d9gdon

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If you'll loosen that line, it will probably start if that fitting is stopped up. Usually that means that the fiber disc in the pump is coming apart and it clogs the tiny glass ball that's built into that fitting.

Also, that is a special bolt in that recessed hole. It has a special head on it that has little serrations on it. It is possible to get it unscrewed but you'll have to get creative. Or just borrow the special tool from your favorite injection shop.
 

old-iron-habit

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If you'll loosen that line, it will probably start if that fitting is stopped up. Usually that means that the fiber disc in the pump is coming apart and it clogs the tiny glass ball that's built into that fitting.

Also, that is a special bolt in that recessed hole. It has a special head on it that has little serrations on it. It is possible to get it unscrewed but you'll have to get creative. Or just borrow the special tool from your favorite injection shop.

Thanks d9gdon. I think its time to remove the pump and send it in. Who knows what all might be rusty in their based on the water I pushed thru the system yesterday. We did get the outriggers chained up using a come-along while holding the hyd control engaged so I was able to start the carrier and drive it to a better parking spot for him. It was left in the woods when he left to go for cancer treatments and his logging contract called for no work or equipment on the property during the Wisconsin deer hunting that starts next weekend. Luckily the boom was stowed. Next time I talk to him I will see if he wants it moved to my place. It would be nice to have it inside the pole barn while the pump is off. Could get a good snow anytime now. I'll let you know how it turns out when I find out what he wants to do.
 

YoungGuns5

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Thanks d9gdon. I think its time to remove the pump and send it in. Who knows what all might be rusty in their based on the water I pushed thru the system yesterday. We did get the outriggers chained up using a come-along while holding the hyd control engaged so I was able to start the carrier and drive it to a better parking spot for him. It was left in the woods when he left to go for cancer treatments and his logging contract called for no work or equipment on the property during the Wisconsin deer hunting that starts next weekend. Luckily the boom was stowed. Next time I talk to him I will see if he wants it moved to my place. It would be nice to have it inside the pole barn while the pump is off. Could get a good snow anytime now. I'll let you know how it turns out when I find out what he wants to do.

Did you ever figure out your issue? I have a 6068 that I started in morning fine, ran all morning, shut it off for lunch. Returned to the machine and it wouldn’t start. Acted like it was out of fuel but I knew it wasn’t. I changed filters and it started right up. Next day I come and starts instantly at the turn or key, it was cold and it normally has to whirl once or twice at least. Ran it all morning. Again, I shut it down for lunch and when I come back same issue. I have fuel up to pump but from there I’m having issues. I’m guessing bad pump.
 

thepumpguysc

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Turn the key switch ON & pull the hot wire off the solenoid ontop of the pump.. u SHOULD hear it click when u put it back on..
NOW try to start it.. if it starts now, u have a stucking/stuck shut off solenoid.. OR not enough juice to activate it.. 9v minimum.
 

old-iron-habit

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Did you ever figure out your issue? I have a 6068 that I started in morning fine, ran all morning, shut it off for lunch. Returned to the machine and it wouldn’t start. Acted like it was out of fuel but I knew it wasn’t. I changed filters and it started right up. Next day I come and starts instantly at the turn or key, it was cold and it normally has to whirl once or twice at least. Ran it all morning. Again, I shut it down for lunch and when I come back same issue. I have fuel up to pump but from there I’m having issues. I’m guessing bad pump.

He had let it sit for two years after it quit. He thought it was empty on fuel but it had died from water in the fuel. The pump was a real mess with rust and stuck parts. A drainable drip leg on the fuel tank is a good thing. It may have saved $1,000.00.
 
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