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JLG 600AJ Deutz Year 2000

Discussion in 'Other Construction/Demolition Equipment' started by Outlander, Feb 15, 2014.

  1. Outlander

    Outlander Member

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    Hi,

    Made mistake in name of the machine in previous post - so admin the previous post
    can be cancelled.

    Have problem with lately acquired JLG. Serial No: 0300053005.
    Machine is very, very used.
    Overload lamp is lighting, fault lamp is lighting,
    throttle regulation is not working.
    I can not find any overweight sensor so can anyone explain how this
    signal is generated.
    Have already checked all limit switches.
    Also need some info how signal for ERC actuator is prepared.

    Will appreciate all replays.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2014
  2. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    Welcome to HEF Outlander. :drinkup

    I need to clarify lamps that are lit. I assume you're referring to lamps at the platform controls. Looking at diagrams I can see a 1,000 lb weight lamp, a 500 lb weight lamp, and an engine distress lamp. Are these the lamps in question, or some other lamp?

    Is this a North America machine or a European market machine?

    What engine does the machine have?

    What component are you referring to as the ERC or ERC actuator?
     
  3. Outlander

    Outlander Member

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    Hi Willie,

    Thanks for Ur reply.
    Machine is european version. Engine is Deutz.
    ERC are Addco driver and actuator working as team to control engine speed.

    Lamps: yes they are platform lamps.
    Those lighting are: 500 lbs (in this case this is 240 kgs) and also system distress lamp and alarm.
    However the 1000 lbs lamp is not present or removed.
    As I supose Machine is working in creep mode.
     
  4. Outlander

    Outlander Member

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    The second lamp lighting is system distress but it goes blank few seconds
    after engine start.
     
  5. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    Ok, it's been a while since I've worked on one of those machines so I may miss or forget something and thereby be in error. I don't know if there's a difference between the North America machine and the Euro machine and all I have access to is the NA machine diagrams, hopefully there's not a difference.

    The thing I can't remember for certain is the Addco controller and actuator. I'm thinking it has a low idle position with engine running and no functions operated, then it has a mid RPM when functions are operated, and lastly a high RPM when in high drive. Red wire at Addco harness gets power when either the ground switches are operated or the platform controls are operated. If this wire isn't getting power when doing this, there's a problem with the Addco relay circuit. White wire at Addco harness gets power when high drive is selected, boom is at horizontal or below, and boom sections are retracted. The black wire at Addco harness is earth.

    The engine distress lamp and alarm is activated by low engine oil pressure, high engine temperature, no charge from alternator, clogged charge pump filter, clogged return hyd filter, and clogged air cleaner. It sounds like the circuit is working proper as the moment you power up ignition you would have no engine oil pressure and no alternator charge, once engine is running these are resolved and lamp/alarm are off.

    The creep mode could describe two separate things, boom functions creep and drive creep. The boom functions creep mode should only be controlled by the flow control knob at platform, variable speed boom functions from full speed to creep speed by turning the knob on speed controller. The creep for drive is controlled by the boom elevation switch. This switch won't allow machine to go into high drive when boom is above horizontal or boom is extended.

    The capacity lamps, they're not necessarily overload lamps, but more correctly they indicate the platform capacity given the particular position of the boom. Simply speaking, if boom is fully retracted and at 20 degree angle the platform capacity would be 1000 lb and that lamp would be lit to indicate that. On the opposite end, if boom were fully extended and at a 20 degree angle the platform capacity would be limited to 500 lb and that respective lamp would be lit. I suppose one could call these overload indicators, per se, but more proper they simply indicate the allowed capacity of the platform.

    Here's a diagram of how the indicator lamps are wired. Drawing is shown as ignition off, boom below horizontal, and boom retracted with boom length/angle switches in the Normally Closed position. Once you turn on ignition, power goes through the boom length/angle switches and powers the capacity relay. This switches the relay contact from terminal 87A to 87 making the 1000 lb lamp light up. Once boom is either raised in elevation or extended, the switches take power away from the relay, contact switches back to terminal 87A of relay making the 500 lb lamp light up.



    JLG 600A_AJ platform capacity circuit.jpg



    If you don't have the manuals for your machine you can download them from the JLG website. Again, there may be some differences with the Euro machine, but it would still be worth having those manuals for reference. I hope this helps.
     
  6. Outlander

    Outlander Member

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    Willie,

    Thanks a lot.
    I have already downloaded manuals and after analysis of them and the machine, came to similar deductions.
    Just wanted to write them down but you have been quicker.
    However your explanations are more detailed and I am very gratefull for them.

    My problem is that the machine was a little bit "improved" by previous owner and diagrams are not always the
    same in machine wiring.

    Regarding Adcco. I can't find how this middle mode should work. According to true table for Adcco controler
    there are only two states: power ON and white wire not connected (means actuator is in low retracted position)
    and power ON white wire supplied with something around 12V (actuator is extended).
    So for me the idle and mid shoud mode be the same because actuator is in the same position. Am I wrong?

    At the moment when machine is running, when I start any operation engine speed is droping down and I can
    not perform any operation. I suppose that idle speed (rotation) is to low and hydraulic pressure is also to low
    to perform any operation. Could you confirm this conclusion and prompt me how can increse RPM's?

    Ones again thanks and wait for your reply.
     
  7. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    Hmm, I'm going to have to noodle through this. Like I said, it's been a while since I've been around one of these models and there's a lot of cobwebs in my head. I'll see if I can come up with something, might be tomorrow before you view it though. :)
     
  8. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    Again, I could be wrong, but here's the way I view the electrical diagram. When there is no power at the red or white wire of Addco controller, the actuator is in "freewheel", meaning, it's loose and the engine throttle will be on the throttle stop (idle speed) of injection pump. On the Duetz engine that's supposed to be 1000 rpm.

    When you apply voltage to the red wire of Addco controller, you'll get mid range RPM, that's supposed to be 1800 rpm.

    If voltage is applied to both red and white wires of Addco controller, you'll get high range rpm, that's supposed to be 2800 rpm.


    As I view the diagram, when you activate the main hydraulic dump valve, either by operating lower control switches, or by enabling functions at upper controls, that puts voltage on the Orn/Red wire going to terminal 86 of Addco power relay, this switches the contacts of relay to put voltage on red wire of Addco controller, which gives you mid engine speed. Likewise, when you enable upper controls to put power on the relay, then select hi drive, hi drive puts voltage on the white wire of Addco controller, this gives you high engine speed.



    JLG 600A_AJ Addco throttle controller.png
     
  9. Outlander

    Outlander Member

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    Thanks again.
    As you explained this I agree completely with your thoughts.

    However on the machine situation is a little bit different.
    I can see that when engine is started and no control switch is used, there is no voltage on red wire (and white as well).
    Once any control switch is pushed, supply voltage on red wire is present but only for over a dozen seconds and after that it is disconnected.
    After controller being supplied with voltage there is no action from actuator, no change in RPM.

    Actuator is fixed to the throttle lever this way that when retracted there is no possibility to lower more the throttle lever so that's why I thought there are only two modes of RPM's.

    Am also confused because what I found in the manual:
    " 3.15 Throttle checks and adjustments - deutz engine.
    1. Power the ignition switch at the ground control panel. Set the mid rpm "
    So there is no mention about control switches what means that addco driver is not powered.
    That means idle RPMs = mid RPMs.

    Any comments for above?

    Anyway will check all mechanics responsible for trottle and RPM's.
    Maybe there are some limit switches on the actuator? Right now there are two Leds on the Adcco controler which suppose to indicate high and low position of actuator but they are not lighting at all. So maybe there is the problem.
    As I can see it now, when powered - actuator should extend a little and thus increase RPM's of the machine to be in middle mode.

    As to machine actual behavior: seems to me that when automatics is activating dump valve after activating any of control switches, RPM's are too low, and than hydraulic oil pressure is too low, so machine can't perform further and that's there is no action.
     
  10. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    Trust me, it wouldn't be the first time that JLG has made an error or inaccuracy in their service manual. JLG has always had poor service manuals, at best they simply give you some information to noodle something out on your own. :D

    There are no limit switches on the Addco actuator, it's position is controlled by voltage output from the Addco controller. There are 4 trim pots on the controller, 1 and 2 adjust mid and high rpm respectively, trim pots 3 and 4 are not used in this application.

    I'd do a little testing of the Addco seperated from the JLG circuit. Disconnect Addco controller from JLG harness connection. Connect a test lead to the black wire, connect opposite end of test lead to a good ground (earth). Start engine. Connect another test lead to the red wire, connect opposite end to a 12V positive source, see if actuator reacts and monitor LED lights on controller for possible faults. Adjust #1 trim pot to see if you can increase engine rpm. If it does increase rpm, connect another 12V test lead to white wire, adjust #2 trim pot to see if you can increase engine rpm more. Let me know what it does.



    Addco throttle controller-actuator.png
     
  11. Outlander

    Outlander Member

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    JLG_throttle_control.jpg

    Hi Willie,

    Please take a look at the picture.
    Actuator is coupled with the throttle lever. When in retracted position, throttle lever is in low position and is limited by the screw.
    With this screw marked as "Throttle lever adjustment" I can adjust RPM's. But those are lowest possible RPM's.
    When adjusted, there is no possibility to go lower. From this position actuator can only be extracted and increase RPM's.
    To achieve “middle” RPM's some possibility of extract actuator “a little” (not full) should be possible. This could be accomplished by limit switch on the actuator or timer but I can't see such a solution in our aplication. So for me, there are only two modes as it comes to RPM's.
    They can be only low(-middle) or high.

    As for machine no responding to function switches we have to low hydraulic oil pressure.
    It concerned only boom functions. Drive and swing seemed OK. So we checked smaller pump and it seems to be worn out. Already waiting for new pump. Hopefully machine will start to live.
    Will let you know.
     
  12. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    I wish Voodomojo would pic up on this thread to either confirm or refute my thoughts, but I'm near certain of how that ECR and actuator are supposed to work. The throttle lever adjustment screw you describe is engine idle position with no input from actuator. That's supposed to be 1000 rpm. When there is no signal from the ECR to the actuator, the actuator clutch is disengaged and the shaft is free to move in and out. In this "no power" state, the spring on the throttle lever pulls the throttle lever to the idle position.

    If the ECR is working proper, when you apply 12V to the red wire of ECR, it sends a signal to the actuator and the actuator extends to the desired Mid position determined by the adjustment of trim pot #1 on the ECR, this is supposed to be 1800 rpm.

    When you apply 12V to both red and white wires of ECR at the same time, the ECR send a signal to the actuator and the actuator extends further to the High position determined by the adjustment of trim pot #2, this is supposed to be 2800 rpm.

    Remember, black wire of ECR is connected to ground. You need to test your ECR and actuator to see if this works properly, or if adjustments need to be made. Once you get this sorted out we can move on to the JLG wiring controlling the ECR and actuator.
     
  13. Outlander

    Outlander Member

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    Hi Willie,

    I fully agree with your thoughts. It would be reasonable machine working this way.
    The only problem is that the only clutch I can see between actuator and throttle lever is enabling
    fixed coupling between them. Once manually coupled (clutched) there is no possibility for both to work separately as you described.

    The actuator and its driver seems to work properly. When no powered – no response. It is possible
    to move actuator shaft, however with some force. When only red wire is powered (no white)
    actuator is retracting to the lowest position. When red and white wires are powered actuator is
    extending to high position.
     
  14. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    That's the way it's supposed to work. When no power is applied, the actuator is de-clutched (internally) and the actuator rod can be moved. This allows the throttle spring to return throttle arm to idle position.

    Ok, that's what I wanted to know, you got a reaction from the actuator when power is applied to the red wire of ECR. In this case it's retracting. Do this again and try adjusting trim pot #1 to see if it will extend the rod on the actuator.

    It sounds like power to red and white is working proper to achieve high rpm, although may need adjusting, but what we need to know is if adjusting trim pot #1 will give us the mid range rpm we're looking for.

    Don't worry about the JLG right now, just ignore it, imagine it doesn't even exist, instead focus on the ECR and the actuator working an engine using jumper wires. If we get the actuator working proper in this manner, we'll then work on getting the JLG to work with it.
     
  15. Outlander

    Outlander Member

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    Hi,

    Have been busy with the machine.
    Please take a look at photos below.
    They are pictures of the only clutch I can find mounted with the actuator.
    clutch.jpg .

    I really dont see any possibility to have three modes of operation.
    Once engaged with the clutch actuator is fixed to throttle lever.
    Since there is no possiblity to stop actuator
    in middle position (between both end positions) I see only two modes possible.

    Have found a lot of problems with hydraulic. Now fixing them one by one.
     
  16. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    Ok, let me see if I can explain this as simply as I can. The Addco actuator, how it's built and how it works. Within the body of the actuator (inside the actuator and not visible) are 4 components that make it operate a function such as throttle. 1) the rod, 2) the clutch, 3) the electric motor, and 4) the potentiometer. Again, and I stress this, these components are "inside" the actuator body, not visible.

    The way it works:

    The ERC has complete and total control of the operation of the actuator, it doesn't do anything without a command from the ERC.

    When there is no power applied to red or white wires on input harness of ERC (not the harness between ERC and actuator), the acutator is "de-clutched" or free, rod can move in and out by an outside force, such as a throttle idle spring. No power on ERC, throttle spring on throttle control arm makes engine go to idle.

    When you apply power to the red wire on ERC input harness, the motor powers up and the clutch engages motor to the rod, the rod now extends. While the rod is extending, the potentiometer is sending and input to the ERC, this is how the ERC knows what position the rod is. Once a certain input value from the potentiometer is achieved, the ERC takes power away from the motor and holds the rod at that determined position of extension. This is the mid range and the point of extension is adjusted by trim pot #1.

    When you apply power to both red and white wires on the input harness at the same time, the motor powers up and extends the rod further until the second point of extension is achieved. Again, the potentiometer is telling the ERC what position the rod is in. This is high range and that point of extension is adjusted by trim pot #2.

    Take power away from the red and white wires, clutch disengages the motor from the rod, the rod is now free to move, and the throttle spring returns the throttle control arm to the engine idle position.

    That's how you get three positions of engine rpm speed with the Addco acutator, idle, mid, and high rpm. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  17. Welington

    Welington New Member

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    Clutch

    Hello Outlander. The clutch is inside the actuator. I have the same equipment you have. I got JLG660SJ.


     
  18. chebby2

    chebby2 New Member

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    thank you this was the info i needed !
     
  19. want 2 get high

    want 2 get high Member

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    I know this is an old thread and I have a JLG 45IC but I am hoping to make use of this information to track down the RPM issue with my lift.
    Thank you for your time and help.