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JD 410c hydraulic issues??????

Discussion in 'Tractor/Loader/Backhoes' started by Harry, Feb 4, 2012.

  1. Harry

    Harry Well-Known Member

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    Hey gang,
    Im having some major hydraulic issues and bad luck. Here is what happend. Cleaning snow from the driveway 3 days ago all was good. The last pass the hydraulics strated to pulsate!!!! Stopped checked the oil it was at add on the stick. parked it till the next morning and changed the filter cleanned the strainner and refilled it to the full mark. Tried it and it was still pulsating on idle only when activating any valve to full open. Still had lots of power and speed when reving up. worked it a for a few minutes and the oil cooler line came apart under the machine. The previous owner made a splice in the line with a 1/2 copper tube with gear clamps and it came apart. I lost 7.5 gals of oil. repaired the line and topped it off again. Started to run it again and lost most of the controls after 5 min of running all in one shot not gradualy???? Very slow and hamering. Got the loader lifted to the end of its strock and bloked the lift cylinder. Checked the case drain at 1800 rpm and only got a few drops coming out and then nothing at all was comming out after 10sec of running. Shut it down and then took the charge pump off and checked it out. It looked like new. Even whent to a hydraulic shop and got it looked at, they seen nothing wrong with it. So now it took out the main pump and will bring it to that shop to bench test it to see if its still good. Anybody here have any other ideas as to what it could be?????? Main relief valve, strock control, priority valve??? Anything else im missing? I dont have any testing gages but i can one of the tecks to come for 100$ per hour if needed. I would like to do the simple stuff first on my own before paying the 100$ per hour.

    Thanks guys
     
  2. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    Did you check the piping from trans sump to charge pump? I think there's a section of hose in that line, possibly has a hole or crack in it? And what about the pump drive coupling, everything ok there?
     
  3. Harry

    Harry Well-Known Member

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    The coupling is fine. No leaks on the rubber section of hose, but i guess the isside could be comming apart and blocking the flow???? I will check that for shure. Anything else???

    Thanks willie
     
  4. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    What did the filters look like when you cut them open, full of filings or clean? Is there a suction screen in the system somewhere, if so change it, I'm not familiar with that particular system but isn't that a piston pump not a gear pump system, with maybe pressure compensating, the newer ones are supposed to be, but not sure on the older one's. We had a tractor do the same things your is doing and metal filings filled up the valve body and caused all sorts of problems, also had a pump out of adjustment and it was stroking out full pressure and beyond one time as well, kept blowing hoses off, something else to keep in mind.
     
  5. crewchief888

    crewchief888 Senior Member

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    if i recall that has a JD radial piston pump mounted off the front of the engine. probably have the detroke (?) piston/spool stuck in the head of the pump.
    it's been a few years since i've worked on any deere stuff, excuse my lack of proper parts naming.:beatsme

    :drinkup
     
  6. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    Harry, here's a diagram of the 410 hyd system. I have a PDF of the 410, 12.1 MB file, might be able to email it to you if it would help.




    Deere 410 hyd system edited.png
     
  7. Harry

    Harry Well-Known Member

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    Filter was not that bad, A bit of metal but it seamed like transmision wear and tear like clutch material and such. The suction screen had a bit of crap in it but nothing to bad. We tried adjust the stroke control vale but nothing changed. Befor i blew the hose I had lots of power, after refill and ran it for 5 mins and then all of a sudden it was slow and weak. Nothing gradual all in one shot.
     
  8. Harry

    Harry Well-Known Member

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    Willie in the pressure control valve K in the diagram, it has 2 access ports on the top. I took both off to see. On the back port i could feel a spring under tension in their. On the front port i could feel a spring but it is loose i can move from side to side. I this normal?? Shouldnt that spring be under tention???
     
  9. Harry

    Harry Well-Known Member

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    We tried adjusting the destroke or stroke control valve not sure what the real name is but nothing changed.
     
  10. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    I'm thinking it in the main pump, if that is a pressure compensating system, it'll adjust with speed, not sure of the technical terms, I"m not a mechanic per say, but if it were mine I'd be looking at that first, along with the control vavle, its either building excess pressure or not enough and going back and forth on its own, if that makes sense, but maybe willie can shed some more light on this problem for you. I'm thinking crewchief is along the lines of thought on this as I am, maybe he can shed some more light on this as well.

    Deere tractors have simular setups on them, that cause problems as well, we usually pull the pumps and take them in for testing, its been a few years but I'm thinking those have the vavle built in, and once rebuilt, we need to adjust them for pressure after reinstalling them or they blow hoses, kinda along the same lines as what your is doing now on its own. If its like most deere pumps like are on tractors back in that same time eara, I'd pull it and have it tested, its either the pump or the control valve in the pump, by the diagrahm of it willie posted its the same thing as were in all deere tractors, and its usually the problem, expecially if its got around that 5-6000 hour mark on it or increments of that since it was rebuilt.
     
  11. crewchief888

    crewchief888 Senior Member

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    from what i remember the stroke control screw can be turned into the housing to manually destroke the pump, turning it back out puts the pump back in stroke ( when needed). with the engine running, you should feel or hear the pump unload turning the screw in. with the screw out, seems like you should hear a slight rattle from the pump if the stroke contrl is working properly.
    sorry i cant answer your question on the pressure control valve, but you might have found at least part of the problem.

    :drinkup
     
  12. Harry

    Harry Well-Known Member

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    Well my stroke control is Solenoid operated. Could the solenoid be bad???
     
  13. crewchief888

    crewchief888 Senior Member

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    now i'm scratching my head :confused:
    i honestly dont remember seeing a solinoid operated stroke control, but it's been 14 years since i worked at a deere dealer. all my deere manuals are at work, i wont be back there for a couple days, i'll dig through some of them and see what i can come up with for ya.

    :drinkup
     
  14. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    I think we should clarify some things here just to make sure we're all on the same page. First, does it have the 3000 series pump like shown in diagram below?



    Deere 3000 series pump.jpg



    Second, are we discussing the adjustment of the stroke control, or are we talking about the manual de-stroke? These are two completely different functions on the pump stroke control valve. The stroke control is part of the operation of the pump. The pump is a variable displacement output depending on flow demand. If no machine functions are being operated, there is no flow demand, and stroke control "de-strokes" the pump and maintains standby pressure on output line. As soon as a function is operated, standby pressure drops, and stroke control valve puts pump back in output stroke to deliver oil as demanded.

    The adjustment for pump stroke control valve is A in diagram below. Again, adjusting A simply adjusts/changes standby pressure setting, it should be set to recommended pressure using a pressure gauge on pump output port/line.

    The manual de-stroke valve, H in diagram below, whether manual operated or solenoid operated, is used to "manually" de-stroke the pump primarily for assisting starting engine in extreme cold weather. Using the manual de-stroke valve takes load off the pump shaft making it easier to start cold engine and not be under pump load.



    Deere 3000 series stroke control valve.jpg
     
  15. crewchief888

    crewchief888 Senior Member

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    i was hoping you were following this thread willie. maybe you can shine a light on whats going on.
    sucks getting old, i cant remember anything anymore......:confused:
     
  16. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    Yep, I'm following it. I've done some work on Deere machines in the past, but never had to do much to the hydraulic systems, and never seen this specific problem, so I don't know what is causing it myself at this point. :)


    Harry, you mentioned in your first post that you changed the filter and the strainer. Did you actually remove the stainer inside the tranny where the charge pump suction line connects to tranny?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  17. Harry

    Harry Well-Known Member

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    My pump looks like the 3000 series. Is their a marking on it to show its a 3000? And yes i took out the strainer where the suction line conects to the transmision. I could get it all the way out because it was hitting the frame!!! what a bad set up. The dealer told me i had to take the backhoe frame apart to get it out all the way. Anyhow i will take some pic of the pump and post them so you can it. It does have a solonoide on the top part of the pump. Im no hydaulic guy so im not shure if its attached to the destroke or the stroke control. I have the pump on my work bench and i plan to take it to a hydraulic shop to have bench tested on friday. [B]Willie my Email account has been hacked so if you get any emails from me dont open them up[/B][/SIZE]

    I will try and get the pics tomorow

    Thanks guys it all helps
     
  18. willie59

    willie59 Super Moderator

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    No worries Harry, I don't open things that I don't know what they are. ;)

    I hope you get some results in pump test, good or bad. I'd like to know what's causing this.
     
  19. wildhorse trnr

    wildhorse trnr Well-Known Member

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    When you checked the hose section for leaks was the unit hot? We had a unit that the supply side line was collapsing after the unit got warmed up. Shut it down and it would operate for abit on start up then samething. Also, if the hose is collapsing there is a chance that the inner hose may have pieces that have come loose and can contaminate your system.
     
  20. Harry

    Harry Well-Known Member

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    Here is what we found at the pump shop... Low flow low pressure. I decided to take the pump apart. Found one broken spring on one of the pistons, its all in pieces. so i went further inside to check for more damage. no scoring or marks and looked good on all the other interenal parts of the pump. SO it took the stoke contole vale apart and found some spring pieces inside of their also. The spool was stuck on it also. after disasembling completly i got all the dirt out and it was not scored??? So the Hydraulic thecks inspected the whole thing, the checks, pistons, cam lobe ect. They said it looks like that would be the cause and all the parts are still good so i only need a sring and a seal kit. So the parts are ordered and the shop will reasemblel it next week and test it again. So i will report back next weekend when i put it back together. I got it in time and no major damage was done.