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JD 410 Diesel engine problem

Discussion in 'Tractor/Loader/Backhoes' started by envirees, Jan 4, 2013.

  1. envirees

    envirees Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
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    I have an early 80's JD 410 hoe (4 cyl, 4219DT03 diesel, 62hp) with under 2000 hrs on it. Bought at an auction with 600 hrs about 15 yrs ago. Darn thing has been great... However recently the water pump bearing failed, engine heated up some before I noticed and replaced the pump. Rebuilt pump is strange in that sometimes the engine heats up to 250 but mostly stays at the 190 thermostat setting. It seems arbitrary. It will stay cool most all the time, but then sometimes it gets hot. Reeving up engine cools it back down..

    Recently noticed that the power is down 10 or 15%. Moving dirt etc used to go fine in 2nd but now takes 1st. Engine is much noisier than before but I don't notice anything but sooty smoke when you work it. It used to start easy, with ether every time when cold. Now it is very cold blooded and you have to spin it a bunch to get it to catch...

    I tried adjusting the valves recently as the manual says to do it every 1K hrs, but they were mostly very close to spec. I only tightened only a couple of valves a small bit. I don't know if I have a pump issue (roosa master), leaky head gasket or what? I would bet the thermostat is original so that may be the root of the heating issue. There is a little oil leaking between the head and block as dirt cakes up there when you work it. That is not really new though..

    Was going to do a leak-down test for compression but don't know if my automotive pressure gauge has enough range for diesel pressures.
    I really don't want to have to tear down the engine, as it still is running and serviceable. Looking for ideas to avoid buying another hoe and selling this one. Although newer machines are more powerful, 4x4, extendahoe, faster hydraulics and quieter cab with comforts lacking in this older hoe :), I don't want to go there unless I really have to...

    Thanks for the assist..
     
  2. wrwtexan

    wrwtexan Senior Member

    Joined:
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    Occupation:
    Indy Farm Wrench, heavy land clearing, rancher
    Location:
    Cooper, Texas
    Does it sound consistent between all cylinders? If so, you might check pump static timing. Black smoke is too much fuel at wrong time or air restriction. A Roosa pump can be turned probably 15 degrees on engine and can greatly affect starting, power, and sound just like spark timing on a gasoline engine. Easy to check. Loosen mounting bolts and turn pump while running with a big pair of offset pliers. Can make one that sounds bad run like a top sometimes.
     
  3. John DiMartino

    John DiMartino Super Moderator

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    Greenskeeper/mechanic
    Location:
    Walden, NY
    It sounds as if you may have got it a little too hot for too long and hurt the engine.All the symptoms you describe go with scuffed piston skirts,and possible scoring of the liners that come with running an overheating engine under a good load.Im not sure as to why your temps are fluctuating so much,unless the head gasket was damaged or the Head is warped or cracked.Are you losing any coolant or have any sweet antifreeze smell or white smoke?Is the motor oil contaminated with coolant and milky?
     
  4. envirees

    envirees Member

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    I don't think that the pump has moved from it's original setting.. I will give it a look to see if it is at all loose...
     
  5. envirees

    envirees Member

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    I was afraid of that... Can you change the sleeves and or pistons from the top or do you have to pull the entire block? I have not noticed any white smoke but with winter here, you get steam etc due to temp.. I will look at the level of the coolant. I recall adding some recently but I haven't had coolant leaks that I know of.

    Any thoughts on parts cost to re-sleeve, fresh pistons and resurface head? I can do the labor but the local deere outlet is pretty proud of their parts...
     
  6. willie59

    willie59 Administrator

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    Loss of coolant is an important thing to monitor. If you are adding coolant, but find no leaks, engine is burning it. Loss of power and recent hard starting could be injection problems, no coincidence is out of the question, but coolant loss is something to note. And you noted you replaced the water pump, but did you replace the thermostat? A cooling system pressure tester might yield some info, test the system with engine at operating temp, see if pressure drops on pressure tester. If it were my engine, I'd get a little more info from the engine and what it's really doing before I tear it down.

    If tear down does happen, as long as you can get the oil pan off, and crankshaft has no damage, you can inframe that engine. It's been years ago, but I've done a number of 4219 and 4239 engines, very easy engines to change pistons/liners inframe. But I would definitely have the head gone through.
     
  7. equip guy

    equip guy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2010
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    Occupation:
    Ag and Construction Equip mechanic
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    You can do those"in frame" for around $1500. You get every thing in one box except the head bolts which need to replaced. I would also do the injector seals and retutrn seals on the "t" fittings. The only thing you will reuse is the rods, and pins. The pistons are already loaded and are in the sleeves. You just tap down enough to put wrist pin in the piston and replace the rod bearings. The more tricky part is installing the pistin sleeves into the engine block. We can walk you through it if you get to that point. Good luck
     
  8. Pioneernorth

    Pioneernorth Member

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    Dec 24, 2012
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    Location:
    Yukon
    You don't have to pull the block but for the amount of work you are talking about you might as well. There is no such thing as getting off super cheap. You can buy a complete engine overhaul kit online fairly reasonably. Probably around $1200. Then you have any work that the head might need. There is also machining possibly required on the block. Cleanliness is next to godliness so make sure you clean everything super well. Remove all oil gallery plugs and use a pipe cleaner brush in them. You might get lucky and be able to just in -frame it but budget for a lot more. You can easily run up to $3000 to $4000 in parts and a little machining. You haven't touched the fuel system for that yet. Go to farm equip. wreckers as well. I think the 4219 was used in a variety of small tractors. Might buy a running unit for a lot less a rebuild. Internally they are the same but industrial may use different water pump and fuel system calibration. Cheers.
     
  9. crewchief888

    crewchief888 Senior Member

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    pull the head and check the liners for scoring.

    it's an easy inframe overhaul.
    as mentioned, deere has an overhaul kit that includes new pistons, rings and liners already assembled, std bearings.
    replace the rod bolts, check the head bolts for pitting or corrosion, replace as needed.

    some kits did not have either front or rear seals (i cant remember, it's been a few years).
    i't would be a good idea to have the head checked for warpage, and have the valves and seats touched up.

    :drinkup
     
  10. Extractorfan

    Extractorfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2012
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    Occupation:
    operator earthmoving machines
    Location:
    Sheffield UK
    Second hand engines are like second hand women - Well f---ed when you get them.
     
  11. Extractorfan

    Extractorfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2012
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    60
    Occupation:
    operator earthmoving machines
    Location:
    Sheffield UK
    Have you thought that the head gasket could be leaking internally due to the overheating - fairly cheap to remove head check gasket/internals/head and replace gaskeQUOTE=envirees;397499]I have an early 80's JD 410 hoe (4 cyl, 4219DT03 diesel, 62hp) with under 2000 hrs on it. Bought at an auction with 600 hrs about 15 yrs ago. Darn thing has been great... However recently the water pump bearing failed, engine heated up some before I noticed and replaced the pump. Rebuilt pump is strange in that sometimes the engine heats up to 250 but mostly stays at the 190 thermostat setting. It seems arbitrary. It will stay cool most all the time, but then sometimes it gets hot. Reeving up engine cools it back down..

    Recently noticed that the power is down 10 or 15%. Moving dirt etc used to go fine in 2nd but now takes 1st. Engine is much noisier than before but I don't notice anything but sooty smoke when you work it. It used to start easy, with ether every time when cold. Now it is very cold blooded and you have to spin it a bunch to get it to catch...

    I tried adjusting the valves recently as the manual says to do it every 1K hrs, but they were mostly very close to spec. I only tightened only a couple of valves a small bit. I don't know if I have a pump issue (roosa master), leaky head gasket or what? I would bet the thermostat is original so that may be the root of the heating issue. There is a little oil leaking between the head and block as dirt cakes up there when you work it. That is not really new though..

    Was going to do a leak-down test for compression but don't know if my automotive pressure gauge has enough range for diesel pressures.
    I really don't want to have to tear down the engine, as it still is running and serviceable. Looking for ideas to avoid buying another hoe and selling this one. Although newer machines are more powerful, 4x4, extendahoe, faster hydraulics and quieter cab with comforts lacking in this older hoe :), I don't want to go there unless I really have to...

    Thanks for the assist..[/QUOTE]
     
  12. Pioneernorth

    Pioneernorth Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2012
    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Yukon
    The guy is in the USA. Lots of J.D. iron around. If you want new then go new. If it's an old machine and you know what you are looking at putting a reasonably priced used engine (checked out that is) might not be a bad option. How wore out is the rest of the machine? New engines in old junk don't bring back the value at resale. You're right about the women though.
     
  13. envirees

    envirees Member

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    23
    Location:
    United States
    Rest of the machine is ok.. leaks here are there but serviceable in every way. Oil is pretty cheap to add and it keeps the dust down... :)
     
  14. Pioneernorth

    Pioneernorth Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2012
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    Location:
    Yukon
    Sorry bud but oil is not cheap. I guess if you only run a few hours here and there a leaky machine is only an embarrassment. If running regularly it becomes a financial issue. Any way, I can assure you there is lots that can be wrong in that little JD. There are two balance shafts and a complicated gear train on the front. Hard starting and low power with sooty exhaust says low compression. Could be anything from bad rings to burnt pistons. Temps going to 250 are way to high. If that engine has been worked at all in that overheated state you can be guaranteed there is serious internal damage. J.D. engines are very durable if they haven't been screwed up accidently. I say again...go find a good running used engine. Do your homework. Find out what machines ran your engine. Turbo versus non turbo application have different pistons. Couple grand might buy you a good runner and no headache rebuilding. Best of luck.
     
  15. Extractorfan

    Extractorfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2012
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    60
    Occupation:
    operator earthmoving machines
    Location:
    Sheffield UK
    Pioneernorth, thanks for your reply, how cold is it in the Yukon, we in the UK have had the wettest 2012 for 100 years, our temperatures now are 10 celcius.
    Thanks, Extractorfan.
     
  16. Pioneernorth

    Pioneernorth Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2012
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    9
    Location:
    Yukon
    Temps can vary quite a bit over the territory. Up north they had quite a snap for the last while with a lot of minus 40. In the "south" we have had a cold stint down to around -30 cel. Has been warm over the last week with -10 being regular. Going down again this week. Nothing like even ten years ago. Yukon would settle in for -40 to -50 and stay there for weeks. Last year I don't recall many super cold spells at all. I guess the place is getting warmer. Cheers.