JCB Skid Steer

[JCBiron]

You might be better off sitting down with the dealer of choice and find the sweet spot for trade in on a particular machine. Keeping them till they are worthless means starting over with every purchase.

KSSS, I found this first statement interesting, only because I hear that question A LOT (When is the best time to trade?), and I honestly don't know if I've ever had a good answer for it. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying you are wrong in thinking that, just offering another perspective. As a dealer, I think it ultimately comes down to what your current market will bear at the time and how strong that particular brand may be in your area. On the Ag side, I think there are definitely plateaus that machines hit as they age, but I guess I just don't see it on the CE side as much. That's not to say that as an owner, once depreciated, it may be time to look at a new purchase....I do agree with you there, and that ultimately comes down to each individual customer's situation.

I will say this about JCB.....they are arrogant and have DEEP pockets, two things you must have when trying to penetrate a "new" market. It will be interesting to see where we are 3 or 5 years from now, and a lot of that falls on the dealer's shoulders.....am I up for the challenge? Time (and sales) will tell...

 

[KSSS]

I think everyone (dealer) has different circumstances to consider (brand popularity, model popularity, area economy and so on). I think a dealer should, if he is dealing with a known machine, have an idea of what the value of that machine would be used in his market. So he can say to the purchaser of a new skid steer your machine loaded as it is in good condition "should" be worth about X amount with between 1000-1500 hours and this amount between 1500-2000 and so on. The owner of the skid steer should consider what he owes on the machine, how much it makes (earning capacity of that machine) and how important the added productivity of a newer machine is and factor that into his replacement decision. I did not mean to say that the dealer has all the answers, but the owner with the help of a knowledgable salesman should be able to build a strategy on when to start looking to move into a newer machine. A salesman needs to be savy enough to assist his customers in these decisions There will be a tipping point at which the hours/age/condition/downtime dictate that to maximize resale value and productivity you should move to a newer machine. When that occures is different for everybody, if your a demo contractor that is likely sooner, if you load saw dust at a log mill its likely later.


Here the larger machines 465 and such are harder to resell. The 440 sized machines are gone nearly instantly. Again having a big ag presents makes a lot of that happen. So I run the larger machines longer which you have to anyway usually because they cost more.
Now with something like a JCB skid steer that makes things much more difficult at least for me it would. Who knows what they are worth? That probably varies by region more than most makes because in some areas JCB is established and in others not at all. You would have to look to Ritchie bros, Iron Planet and so forth to get a general idea. My hunch is you will have to keep a JCB for a good while (I am being maybe too kind, I think the owner is going to have to run the wheels or tracks off the machine because of the steep drop in value) , they just dont resale so you need to pull every last valuable hour out of the machine you can. Cause no one is going to pay you anymore for leaving some value in the machine when you want out of it.

 

[ih100]

Now it is true that the robot is a European machine, and in Europe they are not that into skid steers, which I commend them for, because they are aware articulated loaders, loader tractors, and telehandlers make more sense. So the europeans don’t know what americans want in their skid steers, so it doesn’t really make sense for europeans do design it, not to mention lots of people probably did not want to move to the US. Now when I commented that jcb stole engineers from cat and bobcat, that was kinda a figure of speech. They did not literally break into the bobcat plant and kidnap bobcat engineers. Jcb likely got a list of some of the best engineers in the US, and called them and offered them a job with jcb. Its what companies do, they fight over the best engineers. You don’t get a good engineer by posting a job listing, you get a good engineer by going out and finding the best ones and offering them a better package than what they currently have. Hyundai, the automobile division, just picked up one of audis engineers to help in designing their new sonata, and if you look up the new sonata you can see where it is more audi like and less hyunda like. So jcb wanted good engineers to design a sweet skid steer around the good ideas jcb already had. The monoboom, the side entry, and the dieselmax. The safety factor is also huge but nobody seems to care about that either. That is what sets the jcb apart from other skid steers, not the rest of the skid steer that say a bobcat engineer could throw together. So tell the bobcat and cat engineers to make a good machine around the already good jcb ideas. Jcb already did a lot of the work, they just wanted someone who knew how to finish it off the American way. As far as the land speed record, yes i would imagine they would have had engineers outside of jcb working on that too. And I like how nobody gives credit to jcb for being the ONLY company in the WORLD who is pulling off final emmision requirements without using aftertreatment! How is this not hugely significant? Cat simply refused to meet emissions and just paid the fines, and then eventually quit making certain engines. If I was designing a machine, I see jcb as the only option for an engine to install. Best fuel economy, and no need for urea. I want a pickup with a jcb engine, im sure everyone is aware of the poor fuel economy and urea using new pickups. As far as the dieselmax and the land speed record…I have heard that recaro was in on the designing of the dieselmax, and it wouldn’t surprise me if they were in on the land speed record either.

Bit confused about why Europeans shouldn't be designing skid steers, Dave? Perhaps Cat shouldn't have concentrated their backhoe design and manufacture in the Uk, or their tracked loaders in France? You might be surprised how many skid steers there are over here, but even on their home ground JCB haven't buried the competition.

As for JCB meeting emissions legislation without aftertreatment, that is only on a very low-powered constant speed tier 3 engine that they sell or fit in gensets or compressors, rather than mobile plant. That engine can't meet tier 3 in higher-powered applications and won't at all at tier 4. As for Cat refusing to meet emissions, where are you getting this crap? They have only discontinued engine lines that a/ aren't profitable or b/ can't be made to meet emissions regs. They're spending tens of millions to stay ahead of the game and trying several different strategies.

You are right about Recaro's involvement, they did much of the design and development work for the JCB engine. JCB have been offering their as a package to third party customers for four or five years now, maybe more. Do you know of anyone fitting the dieselmax to their machines, Dave? If not, ask yourself why.

 

[dave esterns]

ah, someone from the uk who does not think jcb is great! so would you say 15 years ago there were many skid steers over there? i believe the statistic is that over half of the skid steers in the world are currently sold in the US, and i suspect it was much higher years ago. well i know next year jcb is going to have a tier 4 skid steer using the dieselmax without any aftertreatment. cats original strategy was to refuse to meet emissions back when the whole fiasco was just getting underway; i guess they figured it was not going to catch on. they had to pay a bunch of fines for this, now i assume they are complying. i believe komatsu bought up an old cat engine design cat couldn't get to work and made it emissions compliant. maybe jcb wants too much money for their engine because they know it is worth it...

 

[dave esterns]

i always have liked the case 430. problem is the price for a used one is about the same price as a new bobcat. if the cab was bigger, it would be worth more to me.

as far as jcb resale value. we are in a bind because at the local bobcat dealer, if you want joystick controls, they charge you 2000 some extra dollars for that, and as soon as you trade it in, it is worth 2000 dollars less than one without joysticks because nobody wants them. so as soon as you take a new bobcat off the lot, you lost 4k becuase of joysticks in addition to the other 4k you lost just by taking it off the lot. with a jcb the standard price includes joysticks, and you dont get docked for them when you sell. so that might make up any difference in resale right there.

since we are a farming operations with a centralized location, the cheapest way for us to own a skid steer is to keep our old one, and pick up a used bobcat for 15k, and keep both of them forever (20k hours or so). when one breaks down, bust out the other one. i am pretty handy with a wrench so i could fix them up when i had time.

it seems that getting a trade quote once a year would be a good idea, and then if you dont get a good quote at some point be sure to trade it before 5k hours, unless you plan on running it a lot longer.

i think my craigslist survey was a good idea. it really should provide a decent representation for certain scenarios if you think about it. the only problem with the komatsu and jcb comparison is that komatsu equipment might be higher ticket items; dont know which way that would effect things.

 

[stuvecorp]

Why would you run a skid that long? That makes no sense. I don't care how 'handy' you are with a wrench I want my skid to run when I want it not hope and prayer. I flip my skids every couple years and have done very well. My current Case 440 was low $30's, I have a .9% and a payment that I think isn't too bad and it still has powertrain warranty.

As for the JCB issue, I don't care how good they say they are I will stick to the devil I know(Case) as the trade values have been awesome. I got a Mustang track loader(same as TK) and I can't give the thing away, it is a good machine but nobody wants it and I will take a beating on it so never again with a 'not as popular' machine brand.

 

[dave esterns]

by the way uk guy. it was a compliment when i said people from europe are not that into skid steers. i would be better off both time and money wise if skid steers were never invented. they simply dont have enough traction unless you got ideal conditions, which is basically never. ctls on the other hand, are a good invention.

i dont really know why people are so scared of hours on a machine. i said it before, if my life depended on it, i would take our old bobcat over a new machine any day. its not like when you got high hours your machine breaks down all the time. the majority of the breakdowns we had with our current machine were under 4000 hours. it seems like a lot of the heavy construction, road building, demolition guys use my strategy of running old school equipment from the 1960s to the 1980s equipment like the scrapers and dozers, and having lots of it. actually i have to do more work on our newer tractors than the old school ones.

on the other hand i would be scared to run any of these new machines to high hours cuz of all the electronics. i seem to have accumulated more high priced equipment computers that for one reason or another are completely good, but i might as well just throw away, unless i just wanna give them to the dealer just so they can have them. new digital readout display for the tractor... 7k. (not one i have in inventory)

i believe case has had good resale but one thing or another is going to happen. cases resale is either going to go down now, or new hollands is going to go up. im thinking cases will go down i guess because im pessimistic.

oh if you want to give me your ctl...i will take it!

 

[barklee]

I just want to let you know "Dave" i love this thread!! You have argued this JCB thing better and from more angles than a Philadelphia lawyer.

I hope you are aware that if you buy anything other than a JCB next time, whenever that might be you will never never ever live it down! Personally i think JCB should just give you one for all the PR you've done.

 

[dave esterns]

hahaha. dont worry, if i do NOT buy one, the only reason that would be so is because of you guys!! i do feel like people talk directly to me when they comment more than others. i tried to get jcb to give me one and they said no! the bottom line is jcb makes what i want in a skid steer and in a farm tractor, its hard not to buy something i want, owning both would be living out the dream

 

[KSSS]

Dave, wow, ok here it goes. The construction industry and the ag industry have far different requirements out of a skid steer. A farming operation that maintains their skid steer (something of an anomoly) 10K hours is not unrealistic from most machines (probably not as likely with the Perkins powered CATs but you get the idea). Most skid steer time on a farm is light duty work, pushing manure, a lot of idle time, feeding hay ect. They may see a lot of run time, but not much in the way of demanding applications. The construction industry is far different, demanding hyd attachments, breakers, mulchers, asphalt planers, ect. take a toll on a machine. These applications take a far bigger toll on a machine than what the average ag skid steer sees. Skid steers dont hold up to hard high hour usage like a wheel loader or dozer does. You dont see many construction skid steers being used and depended on at 10K hours. The very same can be said for mini excavators. the other issue is productivity. You make money in construction by being productive. A skid steer with 10K hours is not as productive as a newer machine. Not to mention reliability. Downtime is a job killer. I know that downtime in ag sucks as well, but generally speaking I think it is more costly in construction. The harder you use them, the more often they break.

My point to you is keeping a machine that long may actually be costing you more than you think you might be saving.

 

[ih100]

ah, someone from the uk who does not think jcb is great! so would you say 15 years ago there were many skid steers over there? i believe the statistic is that over half of the skid steers in the world are currently sold in the US, and i suspect it was much higher years ago. well i know next year jcb is going to have a tier 4 skid steer using the dieselmax without any aftertreatment. cats original strategy was to refuse to meet emissions back when the whole fiasco was just getting underway; i guess they figured it was not going to catch on. they had to pay a bunch of fines for this, now i assume they are complying. i believe komatsu bought up an old cat engine design cat couldn't get to work and made it emissions compliant. maybe jcb wants too much money for their engine because they know it is worth it...

You're guessing, assuming and believing quite a bit there, USA guy. Where are you getting all this "information" from? If you've paid for any of it someone owes you a refund. You definitely won't see a Tier 4 compliant Dieselmax without aftertreatment. Reason being that burning fuel always produces NoX, which isn't regulated at Tier 3 the way hydrocarbons and particulate matter are, but is at Tier 4. As I said, their non-aftertreated Tier 3 is a low-powered constant speed product. When some aftertreatment systems are almost doubling the cost of the engines they're fitted to, don't you think the world would be beating a path to JCB's door, even if it was a bit dearer, and if the Dieselmax was so expensive, JCB wouldn't be producing it, they'd continue to buy.

 

[JCBiron]

I think the confusion here is what we are considering aftertreatment. (As told by JCB personnel directly), The JCB Dieselmax engine will be Interim T4 compliant with a low % of EGR only, and will not require any secondary fluid (DEF) or particulate filters/regeneration. As for T4 Final, we don't know just yet....

KSSS,

I think you misunderstood my previous comments regarding re-sale. I wasn't saying that I couldn't give a trade value for a model year "X" at "Y" hours, nor that with an informed customer, we couldn't decide when a good time to trade would be. I was simply stating that when a customer says "When's the best time to trade," there are so many variables to that, and most guys can't give the proper info to make that informed decision you are referring to.

Also, it's "dealer presence", not "presents" ......just giving you a hard time

 

[JCBiron]

"im sure everyone is aware of the poor fuel economy and urea using new pickups."

Dave,

As much as I love the enthusiasm and vigor with which you push the JCB skids, I will have to pick on this statement just a bit....

Let me qualify this by saying I have ZERO experience with DEF/SCR on pickup trucks and what that does to fuel ecomomy, but I can speak about what we are seeing on the Ag side of things in the new Case IH Steiger and Magnum tractors.

To put it bluntly, SCR saves fuel. And if anyone on here wants to argue that fact, whether it be "yeah, but you have to buy the DEF" or "yeah, but the tractor is more expensive", please share...

We have customers saving anywhere from 8-10 gallons PER HOUR over their tier 3 tractors, pulling the same implements and doing the same amount of work. In some cases, we have customers doing the same work with smaller tractors and STILL saving fuel. This diesel savings MORE than pays for the cost of the DEF. And while it is true that the technology comes with a cost on the front side....tell me a year when manufacturers DIDN'T take a price increase. Most of the time they just call it an "Economic Adjustment," which meant, "We're gonna charge more cause we can." This time, we are actually getting technology that improves the performance of the machine. The long and short, machine prices go up anyway, this time, we got something for it.

Now, of course, this is a CE forum, so I didn't mean to hi-jack the thread and start preaching about farm tractors....but as everyone on here knows, a lot of the same engines wind up on both sides of the fence, and a lot of my Steiger tractors end up pulling scrapers. I know I am biased, but unless Deere has a trick up their sleeve for Tier 4 Final, I think they made a big mistake going with CEGR/DPF. Notice that when they talk about their T4 solution, they never speak of improved efficiencies....it's always "We didn't notice any change from our old tractors." Just something I noticed when looking at their website info....

Ok, so I kinda got off topic here, but the original point was that SCR/DEF has been GREAT for fuel efficiency on the Ag side, so I would be surprised that the pickups aren't seeing similar improvement????

 

[dave esterns]

i will reply more to the shinanigans later. although its true that scr saves fuel over a tier 3 engine, the tier 3 engines took way more fuel than the older engines. they are not more efficient than say a diesel engine from the 90s. (the west measures efficiency by emissions, the rest of the world measures efficiency by fuel consumption) if you go to the nebraska tractor test lab website and look up old vs new tractors, you will find that many of the old school tractors achieved a higher hp-hr/gal rating. this is before you even factor in added cost from technology or urea consumption.

i do not consider exhaust recirculation after treatment. do most people?

when your customers are telling you they are saving 10 gallons an hour...is that calculated or what the computer says? i do not believe anyone is saving 10 gallons of fuel an hour in a fair comparison. that is "not possible."

 

[JCBiron]

Dave,

We are at Tier 1 efficiency levels.

Fuel savings have been seen at the fuel barrel, which most of the time, has coincided with the read-out on the inst. cluster (within a few tenths).

On a side note....even on our Tier 3 tractors, we demo'd a 485 Quadtrac to a Deere customer (9530's I believe) and they realized an 8 gallon per hour savings pulling the exact same implement. And you also have to factor in that when conditions are ideal, a Quad will always use more fuel than a wheeled tractor.

 

[ih100]

I am talking about the T4 final levels, not the interim, which is, er, interim. JCB are using a narrow range of engines to brag on, which will bite them later. Cat had a T3 compliant engine with old-school mechanical pump and injectors. They were smart enough not to brag that this was the way to go at T3, but used it as a cost-saver for their own benefit in some applications.

JCBiron, it's just possible that JCB's talking up their engine is to take peoples' minds off the poor rep some of their equipment and aftersales service is getting. They don't have too hot a name in their own back garden. Which is a shame as some of their lines, like all companies, are good. As all of these companies and corporations rush to become full-line producers, quality of some lines suffers.

 

[dave esterns]

First link is of an older jcb pushing dirt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va5bpq0D7ZM&feature=related

these links are just of awesome stuff everyone should watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qYpJzO96Uw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPsFZBA_1FY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxxUx08XVYg&feature=related

 

[dave esterns]

first of all i was talking to a gentleman about case skid steers. he said customers said the case s3 rear door was too light, and are impressed they made them even lighter on the new case machines. he has customers that change out their back doors on bobcats when the get new rental machines, and thats a heavy bobcat rear door at that.

everyone knows newer pickups get worse fuel economy than older ones. granted, they have more power, but even carrying around just the truck its still worse mileage.

as far as sticking with one brand of equipment, or sticking with an entire brand lineup of equipment, that does not seem like a strategic thing to do. really, i could not care less how "good" jcbs full lineup of equipment is. i am interested in their farm tractors and their skid steers. i buy whatever is the best regardless of who makes it.

when r we all going to have a meeting at the local town hall so as to discuss matters?

their is no denying the dieselmax is partly for publicity. better deal than super bowl commercials.

i was wondering how long it was going to take someone to say that farmers dont use their skid steers like construction guys. i have thought about this before and this is debatable. unless you use your skid steer strictly as a dozer, or strictly as a jackhammer (not with a jackhammer attachment) to tear concrete buildings down, i rarely see skid steers doing things that are impressive. our skid steer does a lot in harsh conditions, and never idles.

now THAT i believe. that a deere is taking 8 gal an our more than a cummins. deere has never been known for their fuel economy.

the stars are aligning and the wheels are being set in motion for getting this jcb skid steer bought. there is talk of getting one out here before they are even for sale.

on the dodge truck, and on my buick car, the computer for fuel mileage is usually off by 4-8 mpg, on the higher side of corse.

 

[FullThrottle]

first of all i was talking to a gentleman about case skid steers. he said customers said the case s3 rear door was too light, and are impressed they made them even lighter on the new case machines. he has customers that change out their back doors on bobcats when the get new rental machines, and thats a heavy bobcat rear door at that.

everyone knows newer pickups get worse fuel economy than older ones. granted, they have more power, but even carrying around just the truck its still worse mileage.

as far as sticking with one brand of equipment, or sticking with an entire brand lineup of equipment, that does not seem like a strategic thing to do. really, i could not care less how "good" jcbs full lineup of equipment is. i am interested in their farm tractors and their skid steers. i buy whatever is the best regardless of who makes it.

when r we all going to have a meeting at the local town hall so as to discuss matters?

their is no denying the dieselmax is partly for publicity. better deal than super bowl commercials.

i was wondering how long it was going to take someone to say that farmers dont use their skid steers like construction guys. i have thought about this before and this is debatable. unless you use your skid steer strictly as a dozer, or strictly as a jackhammer (not with a jackhammer attachment) to tear concrete buildings down, i rarely see skid steers doing things that are impressive. our skid steer does a lot in harsh conditions, and never idles.

now THAT i believe. that a deere is taking 8 gal an our more than a cummins. deere has never been known for their fuel economy.

the stars are aligning and the wheels are being set in motion for getting this jcb skid steer bought. there is talk of getting one out here before they are even for sale.

on the dodge truck, and on my buick car, the computer for fuel mileage is usually off by 4-8 mpg, on the higher side of corse.

Dave, did you get the JCB and if so how do you like it? Thanks

 

[StumpyWally]

JCB SSL/CTL Problems Q4 2012

In the September of 2012 I was evaluating SSL/CTL's for purchase for my use on my property. I'm a retired Civil Eng'r & a work alone owner/operator, so I get in & out of cab of my machines a lot. And I have wet ground & grass & woods to work in. So, I was very interested in a small frame 60 hp JCB CTL, like a 150T or even a 155T (a 150 with the wide track option). I was in the process of getting detailed quotes when the sales rep told me it was all for naught, because JCB put a "hold" (sales/production?) on all the small frame models until the beginning of 2013.

I couldn't wait that long, so I ended up buying a New Holland L220 with Solideal rubber OTT's as the best conventional solution for me. While I like the L220, it's not perfect, & I still dream of the JCB cab.

Does anyone know what caused the "hold"??....What was the problem??...Has the problem been fixed??...Has production/sales of the small frame models resumed??