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IT28F engine problem sounds bad.

Discussion in 'Tool Carriers' started by Phil P, Dec 31, 2019.

  1. Phil P

    Phil P Well-Known Member

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    Nige

    The fellow that quoted me the price retired today but the fellow in the parts department was able to access his notes.
    The Remanufactured number is 10R7258

    Phil P
     
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  2. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    With unknown hours since it was last removed, maybe not as bad as it looks at first glance.
    Those bits of cork on the LH side are part of the gasket for the filler cap IMHO.
    A filter cut and a look at what's in the bottom of the pleats might be more revealing.

    Elevated aluminium as in how many ppm..? Again with unknown hours on the oil going by the SOS numbers is a cr@p shoot.
    Maybe it needs a pump..? Pull it off and have a peek inside maybe.?

    Part Number 10R-7258 is a complete engine, not a long block. That was my worry.
     
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  3. Phil P

    Phil P Well-Known Member

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    Nige Thanks for your thoughts

    The oil report is attached to post #46.

    They recommend oil and filter change and resample in 250 hours.

    The drain plug was clean no sediment at all. When I wiped the bottom of the transmission with my finger thru the drain hole there wasn’t anything there either.

    I cut the oil filter open a week or so ago and found nothing there.

    When I drained the oil today it was clean when in the sample bottle it was the correct color and you could see light thru it.

    I am seriously considering repair or replace the engine.

    Please let me know what information you have on engine 10R7258 and what concerns you have?

    Phil P


    Phil P
     
  4. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    The 101-7528 Part Number is a brand new zero hours engine. Buy that Part Number and you get to keep your old engine and turn it into a boat anchor or whatever you choose to do with it.

    10R-7258 is the Part Number for a Remanufactured engine. It was rebuilt to zero hours by the factory. Typically the price of Reman will be somewhere around 60% of the price of a new component (101-7528 in your case)
    Your old engine has to be returned to Cat in order to qualify for what is known as a Core Deposit. The way it works is that Reman Price + Core Deposit = New Price.
    Lose your Core Deposit for whatever reason and you end up paying new price which will be a lot more than $23k.

    I strongly advise you to speak to the dealer Parts people and ask them to clearly explain to you what hoops you have to jump through in order that when you send the old engine back that it qualifies for a full Core Deposit. While you are speaking to them, ask them how much the Core Deposit actually is. It will focus your mind wonderfully.
     
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  5. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    I had a look at your oil analysis. Because it's only a single sample with no previous history to establish a trend the analyst has simply listed all the places that aluminium can come from on an IT28F. See below.

    upload_2020-2-12_6-13-52.png

    The suggestion to change oil and filter and pull another sample in 250 hours is standard bearing in mind the lack of previous history and the numbers shown in the analysis.

    NOTE: The oil might look clean to your eye but it is full of small particles in the 6-15 micron size range. The target ISO Code for that oil is no more than 20/18/15, the sample actually analyzes at 23/22/20 which is 8-16 times the number of particles that would be expected in an "acceptably clean" sample. Again, hence the recommendation to change oil and filter. My worry is that it was drained cold and that may not have helped to flush out these small particles. Personally once it was up and running I'd let it go for a couple of weeks and change the oil & filter again.

    Other elements are also in the "Action Required" range. Below is a list of the more important elements along with the Action Required ppm value. Silicon is relatively low. When I say this I mean that it is low compared to other elements in respect of the "Action Required" range for a sample with 1000 operating hours on the oil (please note the highlighted comment). You can see why they have singled out aluminium in the analysis. As I said earlier my first suspect would be the pump.

    Cu 23 (Action Required <27)
    Fe 17 (<14)
    Al 13 (<4)
    Pb 3 (<4)
    Si 5 (<5)
     
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  6. Phil P

    Phil P Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Niger for your thoughts

    Here is my dilemma.

    This unit has rust on the lower portions of the cab from the dirt that has been allowed to sit on the floor for extended periods of time. The hydraulics for the lift system is reasonably sound.

    Purchasing another used machine leaves us with unknown reliability until you have operated it for some time.

    The $22,8##.00 is the total amount including the core charge. The way this thing failed I would give odds in favor of you that this core is not going to be accepted. They know the price includes the core deposit and they are also convinced the core will not be accepted.

    The dealer assures me if we don’t return the core there will not be any additional charges.

    I don’t have any idea what it would cost to have the transmission disassembled and repaired as needed.

    At this time we can’t make up our minds whether to just see if we can trade it off for another used machine or remove the engine have it dissembled to see how bad it is which would leave us with an even less valuable piece of equipment .

    Looking at what records I have on some of the other equipment these transmissions and gear boxes have been overlooked for many years. I mentioned the appearance of the oil out of this one because the oil out of the 930 transmission was black.

    The local dealer hasn’t even returned an estimate to R&R this engine let alone give me any idea of the labor cost to dissemble the transmission for inspection.

    Phil P
     
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  7. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Here's my 2c based on the above.
    The criteria that I am aware of for an engine such as this one to qualify for Full Core Credit are: -
    • It has to be able to rotate 2 complete revolutions (1 firing cycle) using a turning tool on the flywheel. Your engine is a runner, albeit badly, so as far as I'm concerned that ought to qualify.
    • It has to be returned in the same packaging as the Reman unit was delivered in - that is 100% doable.
    • It should not be missing any blank plugs or cover plates that were on the Reman unit. (e.g. things like a cover for where the starter motor fits) - digital photos are your friend here.
    • It should not be missing any parts.
    As far as I can see (and I'm not there) your engine should qualify on all counts.
    Has the dealer explained it to you differently.?
    Ask you dealer about Damaged Core Credit and what the criteria are for that as far as they are concerned.
     
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  8. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Regarding your transmission IHMO it's nowhere near as bad as you are imagining.
    I wouldn't even consider removing it for teardown & evaluation without FAR MORE in the way of diagnostic confirmation than you have right now.
    All I'd do personally is throw new oil & a filter in it, then change oil & filter again a month down the line, and keep getting regular oil samples to establish a trend.

    If your current machine is repaired, you have a known quantity.
    If you trade it for another machine (I assume a used one), then you start again from square one with an unknown quantity, which I think is where we came in 4 pages ago ........ YMMV.

    Check your PM's.............
     
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  9. Phil P

    Phil P Well-Known Member

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    Hi

    I am unable to figure out how to send you a private message.
     
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  10. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

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    Click on the box on the left with "Nige" or his picture, and another box will come up with "start a conversation" that's what you want. It's just confusing because it's not called private message.
     
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  11. kshansen

    kshansen Senior Member

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    Yes it is confusing to those who have been on the forum for a long time because at one point it was actually called "send a private message" so many here including myself may use that "old term" at times!
     
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  12. N140MM

    N140MM New Member

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  13. Phil P

    Phil P Well-Known Member

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    I am back and found they haven’t even cut the PO for the engine in this unit.

    And now the 930 engine has started getting worse about this low compression cylinder.

    Phil P
     
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  14. Phil P

    Phil P Well-Known Member

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    Hello All

    Here is an update on the IT28F.

    Caterpillar has just informed me the ship date for a factory reman is 5/27 a month away.

    This should give me plenty of time to get the radiator out of the unit and have it cleaned or re-core as needed.

    Phil P
     
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  15. Phil P

    Phil P Well-Known Member

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    Here is an update.

    Cat tells me the ship date is still good.

    We have started the job. Removed the radiator and it is on its way to the same radiator shop our Cat dealer uses.
     

    Attached Files:

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  16. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

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    Take photos - lots of photos......
     
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  17. Phil P

    Phil P Well-Known Member

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    Hi Niger

    Yes from this point on there will be many photos. Up until now this has gone by the manual and there wasn't much to take apart that isn't easy to put back on. I did remove the alternator and it will go to the shop for new bearings. The rest of the work will be performed by myself and a fellow that has more recent experience.

    Phil P
     
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  18. DMiller

    DMiller Senior Member

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    Hey there Phil, you look as Old and Crusty as I am, good luck in that.
     
  19. Phil P

    Phil P Well-Known Member

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