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I need some guidance

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,492
Location
Canada
You have to learn how to do the job right before you try to do the job fast. The same when trying to take short cuts. Very few people can do both! Hopefully you have a good foreman that realizes you're new and understands it takes time to develop skills. I worked in a shop where the plant manager had a meeting on the shop floor and said we don't push you too hard because we can't afford mistakes and then showed some bolts that the welds broke when they went to bolt a large vessel on a skid. He said this is unacceptable and it was. They built oilfield equipment mostly on skids and would have to assemble everything to make it sure it goes together and then take it apart for shipping. The bolts are welded from the underside of large I beams because you can't get under the skid to hold them. The bolts barely had any weld on them and the slightest little bump knocked them off. Then they had to take a bunch of stuff off the skid so they could raise it up to reweld the bolts. An expensive screw up from someone too lazy and not taking the time to do it right.

I worked in another shop and had only had my pressure ticket for about 6 month's. I was on night shift and never complained about the jobs I was given. The foreman thought it would be good experience for me to do some pipe spooling. I worked beside another guy who had 6 or 7 years experience and was obviously faster. I'd check all my root passes with a flashlight to make sure I had full penetration because they had to pass X-ray. Experienced guys will only check the odd one. I had very few repairs but was quite a bit slower. Foreman always told me as long as your x-rays pass you're good. Speed comes with experience. Well one day this other welder said he wanted to talk to me. He was questioning how much I had done that night. I was a little upset and asked if the day shift foreman had said anything and he said yes. Before the end of the shift I asked the night shift foreman about it and he said the day shift foreman never said a thing. He again asked if my x-rays passed and I said yes. He said to ignore the other welder and they were happy with my work.

Fast forward a couple month's to early December and they announce they have to lay some people off temporarily while they wait for blueprints. The other welder who had been with the company at least a year before I was hired was laid off. I ended up getting a Christmas bonus! The laid off workers were called back about the 2nd week of January and were told unfortunately if you were laid off you won't be receiving a bonus! I was holding the biggest grin in you could imagine. Oh I'm sure this idiot trying to get me in trouble had a lot to do with him getting laid off. He even tried to change employee numbers with me on the time cards because my number matched his birthday. Payroll told him no!!! I found out later he was trying to get me kicked out of pipe spooling because they had hired a friend of his and he wanted him to down there.

Moral of the story is do the best job you can and get along with your co-workers and especially the foreman and if they're any good they'll look out for you. Ask questions and don't be afraid to ask for help, just don't be a brown noser and try to make yourself look better by putting other people down. A good foreman will see right through these types.
 

Shimmy1

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
4,325
Location
North Dakota
Sick and tired how EVERYTHING depends on what some "book" says. Who wrote the ?!#king book? The engineers that built the machine. I'm only 40, and for the first 30 years of my life, we fixed everything ourselves. The last 10, with the technical nightmare most equipment has become, coupled with the EPA mandates on exhaust after treatment, it is almost impossible to diagnose problems much beyond a dead battery or plugged filter. Plus, with shop rates well over a hundred, and on the rise, the pressure on techs is HIGH. Add all this to the fact that most of the wrenches that had to learn how to diagnose without computers are aging out, and the new crop has to rely almost exclusively on computers, you have a recipe for failure. Oh, and last but not least, a good percentage of new techs are people that never changed oil in their car growing up, they were sold a bill of goods by the job fair people that promised them $100k a year because TECHNOLOGY is the FUTURE of service work. And before anyone wants to disagree with this last point, I went to school for diesel tech in the 90's, and had to work with these morons. In their defense, I did have the opportunity to learn how to wrench before the age of 10, and I realize that everyone has to start somewhere, but I used to shudder when I thought of these guys back then having to go to work in a shop, and that was 1997.

Good luck Blue, keep your head up, and realize you're not going to figure it all out overnight, or probably in a year or two. This job takes experience to get proficient, and you are going to have half as much time to figure it out, because you have twice as much time to spend diagnosing problems with a computer instead of wrenching with tools and gauges.
 

thepumpguysc

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Messages
7,518
Location
Sunny South Carolina
Occupation
Master Inj.Pump rebuilder
A freekin MEN to that Shimmy.!!!
What most techs don't realize is just because the "tool" told him it was an O2 sensor & he replaced it & the lite is still on.. doesn't mean it was an O2 sensor.. BUT the tool said it was.. we musta got a bad one.??
Lets spend another 100.00 of the customers money to get a new one..
The problem that I saw before I left was NO TRAINING.. even the instructors couldn't get the sh!t to work.. IN THEIR OWN CLASS ROOM.. its a joke out there.. & the thing about it is> ITS NOT FUNNY.
Just keep Yes Sir, Yes Sir till u cant Yes Sir no more.. keep your head down & do your work till they say u cant..
 

funwithfuel

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2017
Messages
5,576
Location
Will county Illinois
Occupation
Mechanic
The book, in my experience, was written by a prick with a stopwatch. He starts the watch when you're turning wrenches, stops when you stop to grab another wrench and won't start till you're on task again. When I was in heavy truck, back in the 90s, I had to participate in time study . That's how they did it. If you were , for example, changing head gasket on an M11 in an 8100 IH and you performed the job in 8 hours, your bud did it in 8.8 and the other guy did it in 8.6. They would add em and divide em by number of techs. That would be book for customer pay. Then they take the shortest time and knock 30%off and that's your warranty pay rate. You dont make money on warranty by design.
The B!tch is you don't know that sneaky b@st@rd is timing, you're there humping trying to make book, and that dirty b@st@rd is re-writing the book!
Remember to document everything you do on a job, for example replace head gasket seems simple, but there are various other operations involved, R&I A/C , drain and fill cooling system, R&I air compressor discharge line, R&I air cleaner, R&I exhaust pipe. You get the picture, all those peripherals are added operations that unless specifically listed in work descriptions are fair game to add to your work. 2 tenths here, 7 tenths there. It adds up and you're entitled to it.
As time goes by. you'll find your shortcut. Can I get by doing it this way?
Last thing, if you're expected to make book time, then there should be incentives to make or beat it, not just scowls and browbeating when you don't.
 

Welder Dave

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
12,492
Location
Canada
There isn't much training in most jobs these days. They just throw you right into the fire. If you're lucky one of the experienced guys will take you under his wing and help you out. Just be aware some guys are so paranoid you're there to take their job they won't help you with anything or tell you if your doing something wrong. You can usually figure out pretty fast who's on your side though.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,559
Location
Hermann, Missouri
Occupation
Cheap "old" Geezer
1976 in the Truck shops, Clutch on a COE freightliner was 5.5 hours, +.7 for Flywheel R&R, + whatever else you had to do besides Clutch. Move to 1984 that dropped to 3.4 hrs clutch, .4 flywheel and if had other work similar reductions. Job got no easier, just the Actuarial time studies used repetitive sequencing to Time Study determine the pay time. New truck, not filthy, clutch still new, and on the third R&R that time became book time. GM Ford Chrysler, all the major HD and Med Duty truck companies same. Made a Killing on trucks in 76/77/78, then the rug got pulled out.
 

Truck Shop

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2015
Messages
16,911
Location
WWW.
Interesting reading all these reply's. Just remember the enemy of good is better, and those company people are not fooling anyone with their flashy dress.
Actually their just farting through cheap polyester.
 

mg2361

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
5,124
Location
Pennsylvania
Occupation
Equipment Mechanic
Hell I've been in this game a decade now and I still have days I don't meet quote times.

Heck, I have been at Dealers for 39 years and I still don't make time on many jobs. And I swear they are making the book times faster and faster as time goes on. As I like to say, "rather get yelled at for taking too long than get yelled at for doing it twice". Hang in there Blue and listen to the advice of all these excellent people and concentrate on learning and doing a job right. Speed will come with experience.
 

John C.

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Jun 11, 2007
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12,870
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Northwest
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Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
I've never worked for an equipment dealer that used any type of "book" times. Time and materials or straight up bid was the only measure and the bid times went away to estimated times with no guarantees. I look at "book" times as a way of cheating mechanics out of pay. Under time and material rules the dealers are happy to get the job done properly and usually stand behind their work. The "book" time people usually treat their customers like they treat their mechanics.
There is the rule of thirds that I used for making bids. Basically it means that a job has an initial amount of time with no experience, and then around a third less when repeated to get to a base line. Say it takes 100 hours to rebuild a certain engine by a certain person, the time it takes to do it a second or more times will be around 66 to 70 hours. Where people get bit by this is they only consider the actual time on the engine itself and not all the ancillary stuff, finding suppliers, running parts, obtaining tooling, clean up, billing and on and on.
 

DMiller

Senior Member
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Feb 21, 2010
Messages
16,559
Location
Hermann, Missouri
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Cheap "old" Geezer
Worst we had at the Flat Rate angle was the Bosses wife and her Imaginative Book Keeping. OT was a Calculation but NEVER over time and a half, used base work hours against chargeable time, when had to get a job done the OT was calculated against the schedule UNTIL a guy made over 40 hours chargeable, then it just magically disappeared to 1.5. As a floor tech not yet working foreman I made 46+ hours in a 32 hour work week one week(holiday) with a 3 hour OT with another tech, they tried to Calculate my OT against the 32 hours of workdays, that did not fly and I threw a fit. The other tech got that same song and dance where we asked how they came up with that(he had almost 40 hours). SHE stated we only had a 32 hour week, even as we were getting FREE Pay for that holiday, again that did not fly and we stood our ground, I suggested we may have to call NLRB when all of a sudden our pay was corrected and all just considered a miscalc.

And BTW, Chargeable hours STILL Sucked butt. When got decent equipment could make time, when got stuck with crap as Fire Trucks or RVs the hours were not ever even close. They based Fire Trucks on Base Chassis usually, the old La France in the local department were IHC base so got IHC time, RVs with GM engines were charged as P30 GM Step Vans even as NOT even close. Very seldom would they go T&M some days would argue MY estimates even as the owners still brought their machines to us. Hard Estimates on HE as Crawlers or Road work at Job Sites on HE. Trailers were always T&M.
 
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check

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Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
800
Location
in the mail
I've seen lot's of guys get fired for mistakes. Very few for being too slow. Just about every job I had as a mechanic from 1976 to 1999 bosses pressured me to work faster, it's what they do, even if you're the best performer.
Seems like an easy decision. Take as long as it takes to do it right and when they complain about time say yes sir.
 

walkerv

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Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
1,125
Location
wingate nc
One thing a mechanic needs is thick skin.I would like to have a talk with your boss. A guy starting out needs time to become a good mechanic. He dosent need some one telling him faster ,faster. Keep your toolbox wheels oiled up just in case. My last boss told me i was the slowest guy in the shop but he also said i had less comebacks than any one that had ever worked there.
I have told all my potential bosses im not always the fastest but i rarely have to work on something twice.i only worked in one shop that was flatrate and will never do it again, i learned alot of tricks but it wasnt for me everyone took to many shortcuts , i have been a truck mechanic for near 20 years with quite a bit of time repairing heavy equipment also. Learn and try to be the best at what you do and you will never have a problem if and when you get tired of managment.
 
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Nige

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Jun 22, 2011
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G..G..G..Granville.........!! Fetch your cloth.
Why do I have this picture in my head that you HAVE said that aloud in a most awkward point in time!!!
More than once actually..... I think I spoke of it on HEF previously in regards to an interaction with a Safety Officer.

I think there's a difference when someone with many years experience makes a comment like that compared to the apprentice making it .........
 

mg2361

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
5,124
Location
Pennsylvania
Occupation
Equipment Mechanic
I've never worked for an equipment dealer that used any type of "book" times.

I don't know of any heavy Equipment dealers who are flat rate. I mentioned book times because our warranty work is paid at a flat rate. Deere will pay so many hours to do a job no matter how long I take to do it. The good news is that I am paid hourly. For customer (retail) work many jobs are quoted so again that is where book times come in because the management has a "flat rate" guide (Deere calls it spg's) to use to determine what they should quote (with a fudge factor of course, usually 1.6 times flat rate). Again if the boss quotes 2 hrs and I take 4, at least I am paid 4. The issue with us (me and Blue) working for Deere is they have this program that measures our efficiency based on the billable hours and labor performance (see below). I do not know if Blue's dealership uses the same program but probably something similar. They want to see us in the green on all three meters and as you can see I am not. Fortunately for me I have a good management who understands that as senior tech at our dealership I am interrupted all the time by field and shop techs for help with their troubleshooting or guidance when rebuilding a component and they take that into consideration at raise time knowing the interruptions affects my efficiency.

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thepumpguysc

Senior Member
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Mar 18, 2010
Messages
7,518
Location
Sunny South Carolina
Occupation
Master Inj.Pump rebuilder
That's not bad at all, from where I sit..
I got a kick outta the web address..
I got tired of the damned if u do, damned if u don't, going on at my shop too..
It was either help the younger guys or get labeled an AH..
I started to help, then got my azz chewed because of my production time & decided to be an AH.. & got chewed for not helping.
 

mg2361

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
5,124
Location
Pennsylvania
Occupation
Equipment Mechanic
It was either help the younger guys or get labeled an AH..

They did tell me they expect me to help when asked so of course I expect them (and told them) to understand the efficiency thing in return. I just got a new boss recently and he has been pretty good so far. Unfortunately my spider sense tells me that might be changing in the near future since the bean counters call the shots and as you know sh&^ flows down hill.
 
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