Mcrafty1
Senior Member
That's probably true...I wonder you you could get an unbiased opinion though? I don't find many dealers of anything that don't try to make their product 1#
-
Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!
Hy-Tran, Rotella, Mobile or Traveler? Need Advice
- Thread starter Shawn.J
- Start date
Coaldust
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 9, 2011
- Messages
- 3,346
- Location
- North of the 60
- Occupation
- Cargo Tanks, ULSD, RUG, Methanol, LPG
Maybe, but their autism and place on the spectrum naturally prevents them from lying and becoming good marketers. They are just happy to have someone to talk with about oil specifics. It’s a lonely job.
I'll share what little experience I have with Travelers vs JD Hygard - the Case/IH Hytran equivalent.
When buying an older track loader, all the trans and hydraulic fluids were changed with Travelers 13 years ago. It only has 500 hours on the oil, but it works and it's still running. The brakes chatter fiercely. I can't stand it and it's not good on the brake shoes. But we don't use it much anymore. When I do change it, I plan to put Hytran in the transmission.
Bought a JD 310 and the brakes chattered on it. I changed out all the fluids and put Hygard in the trans and the rear end. It has wet brakes in the rear and the chatter went away. I put a mix of travelers and Hygard in the Hydrauilcs. I've changed so many hoses and cylinder seals on it now, that I've about replaced all the fluid with straight 10W-30 motor oil in the hydraulics now. I will always run Hygard in the trans and rear for the anti-chatter additive in the premium fluids.
So yes, the cheaper oils will work, but like everyone said you get what you pay for.
When buying an older track loader, all the trans and hydraulic fluids were changed with Travelers 13 years ago. It only has 500 hours on the oil, but it works and it's still running. The brakes chatter fiercely. I can't stand it and it's not good on the brake shoes. But we don't use it much anymore. When I do change it, I plan to put Hytran in the transmission.
Bought a JD 310 and the brakes chattered on it. I changed out all the fluids and put Hygard in the trans and the rear end. It has wet brakes in the rear and the chatter went away. I put a mix of travelers and Hygard in the Hydrauilcs. I've changed so many hoses and cylinder seals on it now, that I've about replaced all the fluid with straight 10W-30 motor oil in the hydraulics now. I will always run Hygard in the trans and rear for the anti-chatter additive in the premium fluids.
So yes, the cheaper oils will work, but like everyone said you get what you pay for.
Coaldust
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 9, 2011
- Messages
- 3,346
- Location
- North of the 60
- Occupation
- Cargo Tanks, ULSD, RUG, Methanol, LPG
Good real- world analysis. Thanks for sharing that.
Friend mentioned he runs 10-30w with Case additive. I have an old 580SE and have started needing to change cylinder seals. Is this a bad fluid or ??
63 caveman
Senior Member
That would be hard to say and harder to prove. If seal failure is do to dieseling then the argument could be cavitation in pump from fluid.
Mcrafty1
Senior Member
Tough call, it could be that it's just old...seals don't last for ever. The only way to be sure it wasn't the oil type is to know that it always had the recommended oil in it, anything short of that fact is pure speculation.
Willie B
Senior Member
While everybody is arguing with me, I remember Hy-Tran as an International Harvester product from the late 1960s. One doesn't hear a lot about an oil that works well, you hear about an oil that failed.
There was an excellent article in Red Power Magazine a few years back, I wish I had saved it. It was written by an engineer who understood the formula. The additives are numerous & well chosen.
I have Case & Dresser heavy machines & International Harvester farm tractors. I use Hy-Tran I buy from my Case dealer in all. I do use the basic stuff in the dump truck & wood splitter.
There was an excellent article in Red Power Magazine a few years back, I wish I had saved it. It was written by an engineer who understood the formula. The additives are numerous & well chosen.
I have Case & Dresser heavy machines & International Harvester farm tractors. I use Hy-Tran I buy from my Case dealer in all. I do use the basic stuff in the dump truck & wood splitter.
Tinkerer
Senior Member
Welcome to HEF, Manland !
We need more details about your friend's 10W-30 oil. Is it a hydraulic oil or am engine oil ?
Some brands of T/L/B's do allow engine oil in the hydraulic system.
Definitely NO engine oil in a Case SE hydraulic system.
I use Shell Rotella T4 or T5 for all my engines. Hygard or Hytran in axles/transmissions/shuttles/etc. and a decent (not the cheapest) universal tractor fluid for the machines with a separate hydraulic system. I don't play in the dirt for a living and many of my machines are older. If I were to have a transmission fail or something else really big, I would have to consider if it was worth repairing on some of my machines. Buying the correct oil for the critical systems gives me piece of mind and it's not always in the back of mind. Hytran and Hygard look, feel, and smell very different than farm store oils. Enough so that I believe there is a difference.
Willie B
Senior Member
My Case 580K brakes sounded liike grinding gears when I first got it. Someone said wet brakes need an additive in Hy-tran.
When I bought the first 580K, the manual called for Case TCH (transmission clutch hydraulic) fluid. At the time that's what my Case dealer offered for the purpose. More recently they have specified Hy-Tran instead.
When I bought the first 580K, the manual called for Case TCH (transmission clutch hydraulic) fluid. At the time that's what my Case dealer offered for the purpose. More recently they have specified Hy-Tran instead.
1693TA
Senior Member
While I'll not bash any product marketed for a purpose as believe you get what you pay for, (most times) I will relay what I've physically seen with the "Traveler's" branded oil from TSC in my own tractor.
My HD-11 series B tractor was operated with the "Traveler's" branded "Universal" transmission oil for many years without problems. The prior owner used it citing cost and a slight leak in the speed control valve. At conclusion of the prior owner's project, the tractor was put up in a storage building and remained dormant in excess of 15 years.
The following is wordy in length but I want to put you there:
I made purchase of the tractor last year. With fresh batteries, along with topping of fluids and general checkover, it started right up running well. After allowing a good warm up, it was moved several hundred feet to a new staging area without problems proving all functions along the way. Nothing irregular was noted in operation. A month or so later I was going to start the tractor and upon checking the fluids noticed nothing on the transmission dipstick. Knowing the fluid that had been ran in the transmission and having a unopened 2.5 gallon jug of the same, this was installed but the sump was still low. I drove to TSC and purchased another five gallon pail of the same product and it took all of this pail to indicate on the stick, but was still low? Looking under the tractor I could see an oil slick which had soaked into the driveway so knew there was a leak. The tractor was started easily and if the engine RPM was elevated even slightly, it would spew transmission oil out of the engine starter mounting area. This is a power shift tractor and uses a torque converter with a wet housing. Transmission oil in the converter housing is normal and it uses a venturi pump to purge this oil and return it to transmission sump when the engine is running. The problem I've explained up to this point is something was siphoning the transmission oil into the torque converter housing when the engine was not running, and draining the transmission.
What i discovered after removing the floor pans and looking things over is an anti siphon valve is incorporated into this oil circuit. It is actually calibrated at .75"wc which is enough to seal any siphon effect for the elevation, but any pump suction readily allows flow through it. This valve was not sealing and the torque converter housing level was siphoning the transmission oil till this housing was overfull, then dumping it on the ground. Instead of a small amount of oil being retained in the torque converter housing, there as about two and a half gallons. When the engine was started, the spinning torque converter, and reduction geartrain was expelling the oil from the starter mounting area for about three minutes till the venturi pump evacuated the housing. Once this scenario was ascertained, and the torque converter housing emptied, transmission oil level with the engine running was much closer to where indications are normal.
Now with all that said, I disassembled the anti siphon valve and sure enough it was the culprit. I cleaned it in solvent and upon reinstallation, it works as it should with the siphoning effect being past tense. Running the tractor around on our property the transmission engagement, disengagement, and up, and down shifting are improving from my initial operation. I never thought there were any problems but there is a definite difference in the way the tractor operates with usage from my acquisition.
My findings are that the additive package used in this oil breaks down or becomes "sticky" with age, or dormancy. The adhesive sludge buildup in that anti siphon valve, and the lack of immediate power shift clutch pack disengagement is proof to me of this. As the tractor is operated this factor is reduced so I believe the oil additives are reblended into the parent by pumping action, heating, or a combination of the two.
I'm not vehemently opposed to this oil but it's not one I'll go out of the way to purchase. Typically I use either Chevron, or Mobil products but have a good friend that is the local distributor so cost is favorable.
My HD-11 series B tractor was operated with the "Traveler's" branded "Universal" transmission oil for many years without problems. The prior owner used it citing cost and a slight leak in the speed control valve. At conclusion of the prior owner's project, the tractor was put up in a storage building and remained dormant in excess of 15 years.
The following is wordy in length but I want to put you there:
I made purchase of the tractor last year. With fresh batteries, along with topping of fluids and general checkover, it started right up running well. After allowing a good warm up, it was moved several hundred feet to a new staging area without problems proving all functions along the way. Nothing irregular was noted in operation. A month or so later I was going to start the tractor and upon checking the fluids noticed nothing on the transmission dipstick. Knowing the fluid that had been ran in the transmission and having a unopened 2.5 gallon jug of the same, this was installed but the sump was still low. I drove to TSC and purchased another five gallon pail of the same product and it took all of this pail to indicate on the stick, but was still low? Looking under the tractor I could see an oil slick which had soaked into the driveway so knew there was a leak. The tractor was started easily and if the engine RPM was elevated even slightly, it would spew transmission oil out of the engine starter mounting area. This is a power shift tractor and uses a torque converter with a wet housing. Transmission oil in the converter housing is normal and it uses a venturi pump to purge this oil and return it to transmission sump when the engine is running. The problem I've explained up to this point is something was siphoning the transmission oil into the torque converter housing when the engine was not running, and draining the transmission.
What i discovered after removing the floor pans and looking things over is an anti siphon valve is incorporated into this oil circuit. It is actually calibrated at .75"wc which is enough to seal any siphon effect for the elevation, but any pump suction readily allows flow through it. This valve was not sealing and the torque converter housing level was siphoning the transmission oil till this housing was overfull, then dumping it on the ground. Instead of a small amount of oil being retained in the torque converter housing, there as about two and a half gallons. When the engine was started, the spinning torque converter, and reduction geartrain was expelling the oil from the starter mounting area for about three minutes till the venturi pump evacuated the housing. Once this scenario was ascertained, and the torque converter housing emptied, transmission oil level with the engine running was much closer to where indications are normal.
Now with all that said, I disassembled the anti siphon valve and sure enough it was the culprit. I cleaned it in solvent and upon reinstallation, it works as it should with the siphoning effect being past tense. Running the tractor around on our property the transmission engagement, disengagement, and up, and down shifting are improving from my initial operation. I never thought there were any problems but there is a definite difference in the way the tractor operates with usage from my acquisition.
My findings are that the additive package used in this oil breaks down or becomes "sticky" with age, or dormancy. The adhesive sludge buildup in that anti siphon valve, and the lack of immediate power shift clutch pack disengagement is proof to me of this. As the tractor is operated this factor is reduced so I believe the oil additives are reblended into the parent by pumping action, heating, or a combination of the two.
I'm not vehemently opposed to this oil but it's not one I'll go out of the way to purchase. Typically I use either Chevron, or Mobil products but have a good friend that is the local distributor so cost is favorable.
Tinkerer
Senior Member
1693TA ;
Did I read this correctly that the oil was in excess of 15 years old ?
I wonder what the chances are that the Traveler's brand oil is the made with the same formula now as it was over 15 years ago.
Did I read this correctly that the oil was in excess of 15 years old ?
I wonder what the chances are that the Traveler's brand oil is the made with the same formula now as it was over 15 years ago.
1693TA
Senior Member
Yes. The tractor had not been out of the storage building since the summer of 2007. The 2.5gl jug of oil I dumped in was at least that old as original owner purchased if for topping off due to the aforementioned leak. All oil was purchased at TSC store in Peoria, and now relocated to E. Peoria. I took the empty container with me to purchase the same, or like oil from the same vendor and all appears the same.
Can't answer to composition and certainly cannot ask anyone there as they are not experts in any fashion. The tractor is distant from me now but my son is going to check on it this weekend to ensure the siphoning effect has been put to rest.
1693TA
Senior Member
Little update:
The torque converter protection valve serves the anti siphon function of the transmission when the engine is not running. It was this valve that was sludged up and sticking in the open position. It is represented by #16 on the diagram and I've annotated with a red arrow. The valve block is mounted atop the transmission housing:
#4 shown in the diagram is the venturi pump which purges the torque converter housing when the engine is running and returning the oil to sump. This is shown with the yellow circle. The green circle on the diagram shows the sump where the oil is being siphoned from.
As can be seen just above the red arrow the line listed as torque converter pressure feeds directly into the torque converter, (#20) which is an open design into the housing. Without valve #16 closing, and the physical location of the torque converter lower than transmission sump pickup tube, the siphon effect takes place with the engine shut down.
Hopefully with me disassembling the valve and cleaning things up the problem is rectified. The oils and filters will be changed shortly but until the machine is proven I don't want to go too far. The part shown as #8 on the diagram is the speed control valve that is seeping oil. Parts breakdown shows it to be a very simple affair but no kit is readily available. Looks to be common lip seals and sheet gasket material in a sandwich configuration. I'll address this once the siphon effect scenario is proven closed.
The torque converter protection valve serves the anti siphon function of the transmission when the engine is not running. It was this valve that was sludged up and sticking in the open position. It is represented by #16 on the diagram and I've annotated with a red arrow. The valve block is mounted atop the transmission housing:
#4 shown in the diagram is the venturi pump which purges the torque converter housing when the engine is running and returning the oil to sump. This is shown with the yellow circle. The green circle on the diagram shows the sump where the oil is being siphoned from.
As can be seen just above the red arrow the line listed as torque converter pressure feeds directly into the torque converter, (#20) which is an open design into the housing. Without valve #16 closing, and the physical location of the torque converter lower than transmission sump pickup tube, the siphon effect takes place with the engine shut down.
Hopefully with me disassembling the valve and cleaning things up the problem is rectified. The oils and filters will be changed shortly but until the machine is proven I don't want to go too far. The part shown as #8 on the diagram is the speed control valve that is seeping oil. Parts breakdown shows it to be a very simple affair but no kit is readily available. Looks to be common lip seals and sheet gasket material in a sandwich configuration. I'll address this once the siphon effect scenario is proven closed.
Welder Dave
Senior Member
Any oil 15 years old may have done the same thing. If there was even a little of the original oil or at some time in the past a different brand of oil (or leak stop additive like Lucas) been added maybe the different additives weren't fully compatible or separated causing the sludge and stickiness. I've tried Lucas stop leak and it's quite thick and very sticky. I think it's hard to say for sure the brand of oil was the culprit.
1693TA
Senior Member
As do I. Too many variables and unknowns to make any judgement call. Tractor was last serviced by dealership in October 2006. Prior owner is not mechanically inclined at all and hired everything done by dealership that sold tractor new. Really no other knowledge than that but it is a good running and operating machine.
1693TA
Senior Member
In the parts breakdown manual for the machine that section of the valve is named the torque converter charging pressure valve and is shim adjustable. I removed the fasteners, gaskets, and end caps and found the spring actuated spool frozen, (stuck) in what I assume is the open position. A good ole horsehair bristle parts washer brush and mineral spirits to the bore and scrubdown of the spool and spring removed the sludge component and the valve now floats in the bore as it should, (seemingly). This is a breakdown from the parts manual and center valve section is the valve in question:
If the problem persists, I'll pull the valve body from the top of the transmission and disassemble it complete, then clean it up with the hot tank back at my shop. Everything as far as soft parts are easily made with a gasket cutter.
With exception of this siphoning of the transmission oil, I've not really noticed anything other than general needs of an older machine needing attention. The u/c is in very good condition having about 450hrs on new pins, bushings, and sprocket segments since replaced many years ago.
As a final note all pressures indicated on quadrant gauges indicate normal and are well in the green area of the gauges at both high, and low engine rpm. This is both cold, and after warm up. I'm talking both transmission hydraulic pressure, and transmission lubricating pressure shown as #'s 15, and 16 here from the machine parts manual:
If the problem persists, I'll pull the valve body from the top of the transmission and disassemble it complete, then clean it up with the hot tank back at my shop. Everything as far as soft parts are easily made with a gasket cutter.
With exception of this siphoning of the transmission oil, I've not really noticed anything other than general needs of an older machine needing attention. The u/c is in very good condition having about 450hrs on new pins, bushings, and sprocket segments since replaced many years ago.
As a final note all pressures indicated on quadrant gauges indicate normal and are well in the green area of the gauges at both high, and low engine rpm. This is both cold, and after warm up. I'm talking both transmission hydraulic pressure, and transmission lubricating pressure shown as #'s 15, and 16 here from the machine parts manual:
Acoals
Senior Member
I don't have much scientific input, but the whole "It all comes from the same refineries" deal doesn't work. Oil is oil, but its the additives that you are buying.
I have a John Deere 450G. With generic "universal tractor" fluid in the transmission it didn't shift right, steer right and the pressures weren't right. No issues with Hy-gard.
You could probably put whatever you wanted in the hydraulic side, and it probably wouldn't make any difference in performance, (Who knows long term though) but the tranny is picky.
I have a John Deere 450G. With generic "universal tractor" fluid in the transmission it didn't shift right, steer right and the pressures weren't right. No issues with Hy-gard.
You could probably put whatever you wanted in the hydraulic side, and it probably wouldn't make any difference in performance, (Who knows long term though) but the tranny is picky.
1693TA
Senior Member
I am in agreeance with you on this. I spoke with my oils vendor today and he is going to package a 16 gallon barrel of oil he recommends they private brand, but is a Chevron product. Also an additive to serve as a cleaning and stabilization agent. The books call out a 14 gallon system capacity so I'll have a little left over for the known seepage leak till it's addressed later this spring.
Thanks,
Thanks,