How much to reseal some cylinders?

[Syleng1]

I'm in New England where it never is "cheap."
I've done this job for many over the years in my company. The customer wants the job done start to finish. They want to know it will not leak a year after. So really not knowing the size of the cylinders and the year and make of the machine, the quote is tough. I'd be more worried about them standing behind their repair than the overall cost. Sometimes dealing with the fall out after the repair is worth every penny when they call back right away and say "we will be right over... we are so sorry you are have troubles." You forget about the high price and are happy you stroked the check.

 

[aighead]

I was, perhaps (likely), upsold, for the honing process. As a know-nothing I don't know how likely it is that the tubes really need it but I assume it can't be a bad thing, after 4700ish hours it may be a good time to start fresh with them. He was pretty unwilling to remove that process from the job, saying that it wouldn't make sense to re-seal if the tubes were bad and would just chop more holes in the seals. He's also guaranteeing them for 2 years, which seems ok.

 

[HarleyHappy]

I’m not sure that I would consider honing the cylinders out.
While I have resealed quite a few cylinders over the years, I have only ball brushed a few.
Never considered it on an older backhoe.

 

[Acoals]

I was, perhaps (likely), upsold, for the honing process. As a know-nothing I don't know how likely it is that the tubes really need it but I assume it can't be a bad thing, after 4700ish hours it may be a good time to start fresh with them. He was pretty unwilling to remove that process from the job, saying that it wouldn't make sense to re-seal if the tubes were bad and would just chop more holes in the seals. He's also guaranteeing them for 2 years, which seems ok.

He is right, especially as a shop that has to stand behind his repair.

 

[Delmer]

I agree, 2 year guarantee means he's going to do it right to avoid doing it again.

Just looking at the cylinders though, they're leaking from around the rod, right? You can see the rod and it's either smooth or scratched. If they're not settling in use, then the piston is not leaking, and you could take them apart and just replace the gland seals, they are more exposed and leak more often than the piston seals, but you wouldn't do that because you have it all apart already. The cylinder bore doesn't have much to do with the gland leaking.

 

[1693TA]

Many vendors purposely quote high. Given this is a turn key job, and there are seemingly variable labor functions that may or may not be performed upon need, the end cost may be variable. I cannot imagine a shop quoting "honing", and not charging for it unless included SOP for them. It was mentioned "if needed" so will they charge for something they don't do? I don't really think so. It will be interesting to learn of your final cost for the rebuild service. Given the service call charge, and labor charges on top of the parts costs, Although it is seemingly priced high, I don't think this job is out of line on the retail level. What is the shop labor rate at an automotive dealership these days in your area? Mine is $125.00 to $145.00 an hour. Construction dealerships are right at $175.00 an hour here and that doesn't matter if your place or theirs after the service call charge.

There is a lot that goes on in the background the end user has no clue about. Bead blasting the glands, solvent flushing of components, effective load testing after rebuild are just a few I know my rebuilt cylinders go through and if they pass their testing, I know they are not going to leak after reinstalled onto a machine. Peace of mind to me worthy of a little additional cost.

 

[suladas]

When I called around I was told $1000 each for a simple seal job on my CTL arm cylinders and that was bringing them the cylinders off the machine, and the price would go up if any damage, seemed insane but was told parts were $200 each and it's "a lot of labour". Dealer was around $100 each for parts and I did them myself. Never touched a cylinder before and the first took like 3 hours, the second maybe 1.5 hours and never leaked again in the few years I owned it after. Realized how badly they were trying to hose me.

I have the bucket cylinder leaking on my 210 and thinking i'll probably do it myself, a lot more intimidating because of the size, but I bet a shop wants a arm and a leg for the few hours work and i'd rather not take it off the machine.

 

[Acoals]

The big nut is where it gets interesting. I tried to do the blade cylinder on my mini a few months ago; couldn't break the nut free with anything I had, including a good deal of heat and using the mini to reef on the 3/4 drive snap on ratchet with the 3' handle and a 6 or 8 foot pipe on it. I quit before something broke and caused grievous bodily harm and took it to a shop where they had a cylinder bench with a hydraulic torque wrench.

 

[chidog]

OK, so we're closish.

I'm learning a lesson with this one. In more ways than one.

I just agreed to pay 3200 bucks to get both of these cylinders done, if I also help with the uninstall and reinstall.

I assume I'm paying a grand or so for a lesson. Getting the job done quickly is worth a fair amount as well.

We'll see how it goes. I asked how I knew it was honed and he said he can send pictures.

If I offered to overhaul the engine in your puddle jumper car for that, I'd hear screaming and there is way more involved work doing that even after you had it removed for me. Not real recent but I've done many resealing cylinders D8 blade and ripper, I would have loved to get that kind of $ for it back in the day. The most difficult part of the job is the piston to rod nut torque.
Hyd cylinders are simple stuff compared to other way more difficult things to work on. And like other parts if they need machine work and you don't have the machines you either figure a way or pay to machine it.
Did I read something about a ball hone? I don't think I'd want to use one of those, matter of fact I have never ever used one.

 

[OzDozer]

I just did the bucket tilt cylinders on my Cat 931B, they are 3-1/2" bore cylinder with 2" shaft and the shaft is around 36" long.

As I'm semi-retired and not super-rich, I wanted to keep the costs to a minimum.

I removed the cylinders myself (20 mins each), took them fully apart myself (they're a simple design with just a screw-on crown on the cylinder, and a single 1" bolt holding the piston onto the shaft).

That took me around another 45 mins (each). Then I removed all the seals (some fell out in pieces), and pressure-washed all the components, and then examined the cylinder bores.

They were in fairly good shape, with the important feature being no long scratches or scars inside the bore.

I then ran a ball hone through the entire length of the cylinder for around 15 mins, until I was happy with the smooth finish. Not all cylinders need stone honing, they have to be very badly worn to need that.

The shafts were in poor shape with a lot of scores and gouge marks (from gravel and dirt falling over the back of the bucket), so I decided they needed replacing.
I went to a local chrome shafting supplier and picked up 2 x lengths of 2" chrome shaft for AU$200 for the two lengths.

A local hydraulics repairer had quoted me $300 to cut each eye off the old shaft and weld it to the new shaft - but I gave the job to a semi-retired buddy who has excellent machining skills (and who needed the work and the money) - and he cut the eyes off, welded the new shafts on, and drilled and tapped the hole in the inside end of the shaft for the retaining bolt.
I paid him the same money - AU$600 for the 2 jobs.

I picked up 2 new genuine Cat seal kits for an average of AU$50 each (one off eBay and one from a local NOS parts dealer) - fitted all the new seals and re-assembled the cylinders.

All up, probably about 4 hrs re-assembly work in total, and they're finished and ready to re-install - which will take about 1/2 hr.

So, the total financial outlay for me, for these two bucket tilt cylinder repairs has come to AU$700 (plus a lick of paint), and around 2/3rds of a days work on my part.
I don't place much value on my time, but even if I paid myself $500 a day, the whole repair job for the 2 cylinders would still only be around AU$1000.

I also needed to replace the 4 flexible hydraulic hoses that are attached to these cylinders - but I had a roll of new Gates 4-spiral wire hydraulic hose on hand that I'd bought cheap at auction, so I cut off 4 sections of the correct length, and took them to a hydraulic hose repairer/supplier, who supplied 4 new hose fittings, and who crimped them on as part of the deal.
The 4 hoses cost me AU$280 for the supplier to supply the fittings and crimp them on.

I guess if I had to pay someone to do all the work I did, I would expect the cost would have been over AU$2000 for the 2 cylinders.
When people supply their full services, you need to help pay for all their tools and equipment they use on your job.

 

[joe--h]

I must be missing something here with the honing of the cylinders.

Why would you want the kind of rough surface a hone leaves? Cyl seals are soft material, they're not cast iron like piston rings. They are going to wear against that rough surface, not polish it like a piston ring does.

So what am I missing?

Joe H

 

[1693TA]

New cylinder barrels are honed and the surface is not rough. Don't confuse engine cylinder honing with hydraulics as they are similar, but much different. Many cylinder barrels are 'lapped" after honing to yield both a proper dimension and a surface finish in microinches.

 

[terex herder]

Honing will provide whatever surface finish is desired. For cylinders with a large length/diameter ratio honing is the preferred method of finishing.

 

[chidog]

Cross hatch he says? I agree with the 2 posts above.

 

[joe--h]

So not the kind of hone I'm familiar with, wish the video would have had a shot of the finished product.

Joe H

 

[Welder Dave]

I would think brand new cylinders must require some kind of honing or polishing and honing when seals are replaced restores the surface to like new. The cross hatch pattern could much finer than for piston rings. Whether a rebuilt cylinder that isn't used as a money maker needs to be honed after a basic seal replacement is the question. Many times the bore is fine and doesn't require the extra expense of honing. If there were noticeable scratches then they should be honed. On a bigger machine that is used for production, honing is best to insure the longest trouble free life of the rebuilt cylinder.

 

[suladas]

If I offered to overhaul the engine in your puddle jumper car for that, I'd hear screaming and there is way more involved work doing that even after you had it removed for me. Not real recent but I've done many resealing cylinders D8 blade and ripper, I would have loved to get that kind of $ for it back in the day. The most difficult part of the job is the piston to rod nut torque.
Hyd cylinders are simple stuff compared to other way more difficult things to work on. And like other parts if they need machine work and you don't have the machines you either figure a way or pay to machine it.
Did I read something about a ball hone? I don't think I'd want to use one of those, matter of fact I have never ever used one.

The nut torque is what scared me but from looking that's not an issue on some cylinders as they use a second nut threaded the opposite way and others use a set screw.

 

[Welder Dave]

When I called around I was told $1000 each for a simple seal job on my CTL arm cylinders and that was bringing them the cylinders off the machine, and the price would go up if any damage, seemed insane but was told parts were $200 each and it's "a lot of labour". Dealer was around $100 each for parts and I did them myself. Never touched a cylinder before and the first took like 3 hours, the second maybe 1.5 hours and never leaked again in the few years I owned it after. Realized how badly they were trying to hose me.

I have the bucket cylinder leaking on my 210 and thinking i'll probably do it myself, a lot more intimidating because of the size, but I bet a shop wants a arm and a leg for the few hours work and i'd rather not take it off the machine.

If you can pull the rods go to Sterling Hydraulics and they can change the seals and retorque the nut/bolt for the piston. As long as you're OK with not having a warranty if it leaks after you put it back together yourself I think they would do it. They did for me on my 4 in 1 bucket cylinders. About $93 each for seals and an hour labour each to replace them. They said the rods looked good. The labour was just for replacing the seals with no polishing. The reason I had them done was because they were leaking out the gland losing oil and dirt falls on them fairly often.

Also wondering how you made out on your Western Star dump truck?

 

[Mechanicsville804]

We have two shops near my work. One always charges three hours plus seals and we pay $270ish. The other company across the street does the same thing and they charge us around 1K every time. Keep shopping for another shop. These prices are for us delivering the cylinder right to them. I live near Ashland, VA

 

[homestead463]

Check the price of a new cylinder on the surplus center website. Few years back I just replaced them for my little backhoe/trencher machine.