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Head Scratcher.

Zewnten

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
553
Location
Earth
Autozone has a 12v electric pump for $30 that I used for testing fueling issues, coworker had a boat fuel tank set up for the same. The pump makes a big difference, suction can't keep up with demand.
 

wlhequipment

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
489
Location
Sheridan, CO
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Mechanic
So, I did have an extra gasket under one of the injectors, so props to Coaldust for catching that one! Slight improvement, but not there yet. Starts a little easier now, that's for sure. But this would tend to indicate I'm looking at a timing issue. Trouble is, the company that knows these tractors best, just went out of business because the patriarch passed away. I'm starting to wonder if my tach is accurate. According to my tach, I'm idling at 500, and I'm told these engines don't idle below 800. So, if my tach is reading low, maybe I'm getting alot closer to redline than I thought. I'm going to put an optical tach on the crank and see what's what. I did pressurize the tank with shop air while the engine just started doing it'd stumbling thing, and no change, so I don't think it's a delivery issue. Haven't ruled it out yet though.
 

excavator

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
1,445
Location
Pacific North West
Direct or indirect injection? I had a Chinese built Cummins indirect injection that had removable, round, combustion chambers in the head. The head was sent in to be redone and the machinist did not put them back in the head. I was in a hurry and didn't notice it. It started and ran great but when the RPMs got to about 3/4 throttle it started to spit and sputter and smoke.
 

wlhequipment

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
489
Location
Sheridan, CO
Occupation
Mechanic
Direct or indirect injection? I had a Chinese built Cummins indirect injection that had removable, round, combustion chambers in the head. The head was sent in to be redone and the machinist did not put them back in the head. I was in a hurry and didn't notice it. It started and ran great but when the RPMs got to about 3/4 throttle it started to spit and sputter and smoke.
IDI, for sure. I believe those round things are called prechambers, and yes this little cracker has em. They're in there though. You can actually see them through the injector holes.
 

excavator

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
Messages
1,445
Location
Pacific North West
IDI, for sure. I believe those round things are called prechambers, and yes this little cracker has em. They're in there though. You can actually see them through the injector holes.
Good to know, it took several different Cummins techs to help me find the problem. We all need to be humbled on occasion.
 

Shimmy1

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
4,260
Location
North Dakota
With the white smoke too? That’s the part that’s actually throwing me off. I’ve never seen a starvation situation with smoke. Smoke always means something else. Others have suggested a timing related issue, and that makes more sense to me.
If it's getting starved for fuel, wouldn't the spray pattern go to hell? Also, do you know if the injection pump is working properly? Has this engine ran fine before, and now it doesn't?
 

wlhequipment

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
489
Location
Sheridan, CO
Occupation
Mechanic
If it's getting starved for fuel, wouldn't the spray pattern go to hell? Also, do you know if the injection pump is working properly? Has this engine ran fine before, and now it doesn't?
It would imagine so, and that would generate smoke, I would think. I'd just never seen the smoke in relation to starvation. Of course, you could fill a big bus with what I don't know, so that's not saying much. I was told that it used to "run great". That's all I know about it. This is a machine I took in on trade against an invoice that was owed. Sometimes that gamble works out, sometimes not.
 

wlhequipment

Senior Member
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Sep 3, 2017
Messages
489
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Sheridan, CO
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What are the effects of setting injector opening a few hundred psi higher? Timing would change a little maybe, maybe a better mist? I have them at about 1600 now. I wonder what would happen if I put them up to 1800-2000. I wonder if I even could…
 

Birken Vogt

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,305
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
I missed this thread, here is another vote for fuel starvation. I presume it has the little chunk of an IP mounted down in the block running on the cam shaft? Have you tried a lift pump yet? Partial fuel starvation will cause sputtering and intermittent smoke and misfiring, seen it many times. If you rev it to max RPM does it run clean for a second before it starts stuttering? That would indicate the fuel starvation. Otherwise I am suspecting some kind of stickiness or something like valve float inside the IP when RPM is too high for everything to work like a clock.
 

materthegreater

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2012
Messages
642
Location
VT
I may have missed it, but I'm just curious if you've checked the air filter. White smoke can happen when there's an air restriction as well.
 

eastroad

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
71
Location
SW Vermont
The timing on that fuel system design is adjusted by a shim pack underneath the block containing the injection pumps, which sets the distance above the fuel lobes on the camshaft. Could someone have had that block off and changed the shim pack in any way ?
Fuel delivery amount is adjusted by rotating each pump. They are set to deliver equal amounts of fuel to each cylinder’s injection valve. You have to be careful to not let them turn as you remove the injection line.
Restricted air supply can cause an issue, too. You would expect a lack of air (too much fuel) to cause black smoke, but several times I have run into an engine that ran like a bag of crap at higher rpm’s caused by a choked up air filter and smoked gray, almost white. Stumbled, popping and banging. Like a late JD 4020 with a dry air filter and a secondary air filter up under the hood, on top of the primary air filter housing, that nobody knew about.
OOPS, sorry, Mater. I didn’t see your post while I wuz typing. I had to get more coffee and missed your comments.
Odie
 
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wlhequipment

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
489
Location
Sheridan, CO
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Mechanic
The timing on that fuel system design is adjusted by a shim pack underneath the block containing the injection pumps, which sets the distance above the fuel lobes on the camshaft. Could someone have had that block off and changed the shim pack in any way ?
Fuel delivery amount is adjusted by rotating each pump. They are set to deliver equal amounts of fuel to each cylinder’s injection valve. You have to be careful to not let them turn as you remove the injection line.
Restricted air supply can cause an issue, too. You would expect a lack of air (too much fuel) to cause black smoke, but several times I have run into an engine that ran like a bag of crap at higher rpm’s caused by a choked up air filter and smoked gray, almost white. Stumbled, popping and banging. Like a late JD 4020 with a dry air filter and a secondary air filter up under the hood, on top of the primary air filter housing, that nobody knew about.
Air filter is new. Engine does this with or without air filter. As far as I can tell, nobody has taken that pump off. No tool marks on the bolts, paint all intact etc. I’ll take a closer look though. I didn’t see any adjustment on the plungers. I have an S3L here in the shop too, and it’s similar; you can see how the plungers would adjust. On this KE95, I don’t see it. Again, I’ll look closer. You’ve had some experience with this engine?
 

eastroad

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Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
71
Location
SW Vermont
Air filter is new. Engine does this with or without air filter. As far as I can tell, nobody has taken that pump off. No tool marks on the bolts, paint all intact etc. I’ll take a closer look though. I didn’t see any adjustment on the plungers. I have an S3L here in the shop too, and it’s similar; you can see how the plungers would adjust. On this KE95, I don’t see it. Again, I’ll look closer. You’ve had some experience with this engine?
Not on a Mitsubishi, but that is a common Bosch design, probably the tag says Diesel Kiki, used by many mfgrs. I’ve worked on Yanmar and Kubota engines that are of that design. Very simple and reliable and almost trouble free.
Why was the head work done on this ? Was it like this before the head work, before you got the job ? Turbocharged with a stuck wheel ? Or a rag in the intake ? I hope you find something simple.
 

wlhequipment

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
489
Location
Sheridan, CO
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Mechanic
Not on a Mitsubishi, but that is a common Bosch design, probably the tag says Diesel Kiki, used by many mfgrs. I’ve worked on Yanmar and Kubota engines that are of that design. Very simple and reliable and almost trouble free.
Why was the head work done on this ? Was it like this before the head work, before you got the job ? Turbocharged with a stuck wheel ? Or a rag in the intake ? I hope you find something simple.
The head work was done because the original head cracked in both bridges and I sent that head to 3 or 4 shops, and they all told me it was not repairable, so I found a junkyard head, and sent it to get decked and magnafluxed and all that.
 

Shimmy1

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Aug 14, 2014
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North Dakota
What was used to determine the head was exactly the same? How about parts? Are the valve springs right? It's not floating the valves, is it?
 

Birken Vogt

Charter Member
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Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,305
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
I have seen a fair number of small engines where the valves returned, but slowly. But this was cranking over at hand speeds. I wonder if this could be a problem on this unit, valves not closing quick enough above a certain RPM. Sort of like valve float but due to gunk in the guides. Crazy idea I know but all the good ideas have been used it seems.
 

wlhequipment

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
489
Location
Sheridan, CO
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Mechanic
What was used to determine the head was exactly the same? How about parts? Are the valve springs right? It's not floating the valves, is it?
The head is identical to the old one, that’s all I can say there. The work was done by a shop I trust, so I have no reason to doubt their work. I do have the original set of springs I could put in.
 
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