Genie S-65 Engine start up problem

[HD21A]

Wille I have read your answers for 2 years, now I have a problem. Have had the s-65 for a year and everything perfect.1999 Genie, Ford LRG-425 EFI engine. Was going up in high speed rate, the engine started to miss, black smoke ,running rich and missing, gas, got down. Tried a restart, nothing. If it sits several hours, will restart, rough black smoke then smooth out, go high rate, rough more smoke, smooth out but put a load on it , die and cough and then smooth out. Getting return gas to tank from pressure restrictor. Started downloading manuals and reading, This has the Bosch carb. If flooded, can switch to lp (No lp tank connected) will start and switch back to gas and sometimes it continues to run on gas. I show a default code of 23, but there is none listed, a 22 and 24, no 23. I have one gauge problem. The water temp gauge was always low, now it is doesn't read. Measured the resistance to the sender, ZERO ohms. Will check the movement by putting a 500 ohm or smaller resistor to ground. There is a 33 default code about the temperature sensor. Would a faulty sensor cause this problem? Though about using MAS cleaners to clean the throttle body but thought I would ask before doing it. I have taken the air filter and lines off and the governor butterfly seems to be working when running. Haven't tried it on lp yet, have a fresh tank for the grill, Will wait for you replies first. We use the Genie on the farm for house and barn rebuilding. Bob Chillicothe, Ohio

 

[HD21A]

Have cured the problem on the water temperature, wiring problem at the sender. Does any one have a link to the Bosch EFI system. The problem seems to be in the throttle position indicator.t . The genie manuals do not include the
break down and service of the Bosch system. Have read that JLG Ford engine manuals do.

 

[willie59]

I have to admit I've never worked on an LRG425 EFI. It's a fuel injected engine, no? But you said it has a Bosch carb? Would that just be a throttle body and not a carb? Does it use port injection, an injector for each cylinder?

 

[HD21A]

I think others call you Paul It is totally new to me, 40 years of IH farm diesels and some AC dozers and a few throttle body cars. Been reading and it is a sequential port injected system. In my searching, testing and playing, am starting to understand it. The good part is, once I get it running, runs good so all the electronic firing seems okay. I think the problem is when there is a change of manifold pressure when a load is called for. For example, go from low to high engine speed, a partial loss of power, let up on switch, switch again and will recover and go to high rpm. Hit boom raise, start to stall, let up on switch, engine recovers, hit again and raises. One of my fault codes seems to be throttle position sensor. Did try LP yesterday , same problem. This happened as it was going up and hit high rpm, started to stall, rich exhaust smoke , like over flooding and lack of air supply. Take the air filter off, runs better, but still has the power stall problem. Going to swing the engine out and look at the back side. There is one rubber hose to the intake manifold that could be the problem. I have read in my searching that some JLG's have the same Bosch system and and complete service instructions on it. Genie has limited information but has all voltage check information which I can do. If I can find a service manual on the Bosch EFI, I will have a guide on how it works, how to check, and how to fix. I think the cause of this is that our barn cat did some exploring in the back side of the engine compartment, found the water temp wire pulled lose and I don't know what else might be loose. Haven't found any Genie forums on the net or any good sites on the Bosch EFI system and I think someone else has been thru the same problems. Thanks for the response, will let you know what I find. Bob Chillicothe, Ohio

 

[HD21A]

One other comment Paul. I buy my gas locally and it is 10% ethanol. Topkick dump truck used on the farm, sits for months at a time, 2 in tank fuel pumps have locked up . Genie sat in shed all winter, no problems, wet spring, maybe cause of problem. I did a water test on the gas, several months ago, clean unused canning glass, a little water, and gas. Screwed lid down tight, after several weeks the water sample turned black. I don't know if the ethanol was reacting with the brass lid on the canning glass or dirty fuel. Did put some conditioner in the genie tank and might drain it down and put some injector cleaner in it. You have any customers getting fuel problems with ethanol... Bob

 

[willie59]

I'm seeing a lot of gas related problems, and I'm convinced it's related to the ethanol. If an engine sits for a period of time, that stuff clogs everything up, especially carbs on small engines. Not sure how it affects fuel injected engine components.

 

[M1687]

Bob,
How were you able to discover this issue?

 

[HD21A]

Yes, I could write pages about my 2 week search on the Ford 245I engine and the Bosch fuel injected system. Did a download of Genie frame and engine manuals from the internet, but nothing on the Bosch fuel injection, The culprit was the ECS coolant Temp sensor. When I measured for resistance reading, instead of 10 K, you got ! meg ohm, open circuit. The plastic head where the electric contacts are was loose from the brass body and the electrical circuit was broken sending false signal to the computer for startup putting the injectors in a full rich condition. If you did a shut off then tried to restart, the computer went into a timing advance of 34 degrees past TDC and not firing. After a time, the computer would reset to normal default and correct start up timing. Had all the Ford part numbers on all sensors and in internet searching, found they were used on Ford ranger trucks with same engine. Napa had everyone of them. The best site I found was a site about Ford computer and fuel injected systems from 1994 to 2005 explaining how the sequence of sensors work with the computer from the time of start up to running operation. The ECS and throttle position sensor are the first 2 sensors the computer looks at when starting. The site showed how to hook a laptop computer in to the computer and read the Genie computer which I did not do. In looking at the engine I noticed the MAP sensor had been replaced, fastened on the mounting plate with cable ties. Removed it and the Ford part number had been put on it with a label marker above the 5 digit aftermarket number. I ended up replacing 3 sensors and a new coil pack for less than what one supplier wanted for the Map sensor. Checked the fuel pressure system, 65lbs as called for. It runs perfect. Found a Genie service reminder about ethanol fuel usage, 10% is all I can get. Changed fuel filters, now use stabilizers and injector cleaners. Also picked up a JLG manual off ebay on service of the Bosch EFI system for the Ford 245 engine and it has some good reference information. The repair problem was a good learning experience. Been using it the past 3 weeks on This Old house, everything perfect. Did check the electric let down Mode, just in case.

Bob Southern Ohio

 

[M1687]

Reply

Bob,
I'm looking at buying an older S-60 for the farm as well. It will not stay running along with the cable inside the boom needs to be replaced etc.
I was just curious how you narrowed the problem down. The unit I'm looking at is Ford powered as well.

 

[HD21A]

Started out internet searching "Ford 425EFI engine start up Flooding" and questions like that. Replys would come back to ford talk groups. Would search them and find comments about the sensors, how to do resistance checks on them. Then read sites about the computerized fuel injected engines. I had never worked on a gas engine that had coil packs or fuel injection. When this thing would finally run, there was no missing , so that told me the spark and fuel injection system was system was working but when a load was applied it would stall then catch up. When I started to understand how the system worked and how the computer controlled everything, then I started to trouble shoot and found the problem. My S-65 is a 1999 model. From what I read, in 98 or 99 they went to the Bosch EFI injection. .Prior to that they were using a Ford 423 or 425 with a downdraft carb and governor. I ran into some Genie downloads off the internet with that engine being used. Ran into a contractor friend that had a 95 or 6 Genie that had a problem, engine would run 1 minute and quit, and his was computer problem, $2,000. I wouldn't be afraid of a carb- governor controlled engine, have on on a 20KW power plant and it is fairly bullet proof. This Genie was part of the NES Rental fleet that was sold at Ritchie Brother sale March of 2010 at Columbus. There were 40 sold, 85 to 40 footers. All the 100hr inspection info was on the machine. I found a place at Bowling Green that rebuilds, joy sicks, complete control panels, and wiring harness, and about anything electric for Genies and other makes of man lifts and he knows the equipment. There is a second tempture sender that sends a signal to the computer which I think controls warmup mode and if it is faulty, could cause early shut down. Do some internet searching on the model and year, and look for a Genie download. A local told me that 423-5 series engine is time proven engine that has been use in industrial application and automotive field in Europe and US. Tell me what year the one your are looking at is and will see what I can find on the engine. Bob

 

[M1687]

Computer

Thanks for the information. I'm still waiting to see the one I'm considering. I'm guessing that the one I'm considering is in the early 90's.
I'm trying to find out what the big ticket items are and what to look for. Your contractor friend had to replace his computer at $2000? Is that for just the ECM? or is there a main computer board that controls the engine/electrics etc?

 

[sterlin318]

hey I'm new to the thread, I bought a s-40 from my work thats been having the same issues you've had. black smoke, clears out until high rpm. I've changes the water temp sensor. Do you remember how to hook a computer or scanner up to diagnose? i would hate to just start replacing parts, if i could scan it and narrow it down to a few less options would be great. Thanks in advance!

 

[coltnovice]

Bob,
Would you still remember the site that had the computer information ?

 

[J Steve B]

Is there still anyone is still on this thread? I would also like info on locating and deciphering the codes. I have a 1998 Genie Z45/22 with the LRG-425I EFI engine that all of a sudden started running very rough at idle and high. I have cleaned the fuel system, changed the plugs, changed the plug wires, and checked the fuel pressure. I too am not familiar with the electronic system. I have about decided it has to be something electronic that is causing the issue. The machine has always run strong until I let it sit about four days during Thanksgiving and then just all of a sudden started running poorly. Any help is appreciated.

 

[willie59]

Is it a dual fuel machine?

 

[coltnovice]

Suggest you download the manual based on serial number and then check the codes. Had similar problem. After replacing throttle body and other sensors, checked voltages to throttle body and found the ECM was not regulating it. Finally found ECU with same model and problems were fixed. Sold the lift but have extra ECM to sell

 

[J Steve B]

Yes, the machine is gas/LPG.
My machine is Z45/22 Ser# Z-45-007917 with a Ford Mod# LRG-425I-6007-8 Ser#25934.
I have the Service Manual that Genie stated is for my machine Part# 32960 and Parts Manual #52032. But the 32960 does not reference anything regarding fault codes. I looked in another SM# 75859 (which is for a Z60/34) which had much more on the 425EFI engine. That manual has a table for fault codes and how to check them.
The code I get is one light blink, a pause, then two blinks, another pause, then three blinks. I do not know what to make of this. In the #75859 Manual it states that codes should be a two digit indication like the one blink, pause, and two blinks would mean a fault code of 12.

 

[coltnovice]

Code 123 is TPS1 signed High (based on JLG manual for ECM). Check the voltages to the throttle body. I had same DTC and replaced ECM

 

[J Steve B]

Gentlemen, as an update I was able to speak to a Genie tech today. I inquired about the fault codes. The 1-2-3 code flash indicates a normal condition. It will flash three or four times then flash any actual fault codes. I do not have any abnormal codes. I am wondering now if I have an injector issue? I send another email to the tech regarding this, but have not heard back from him.

 

[willie59]

Since it's a dual fuel machine I'd look into getting a propane cylinder and see if the engine will run on propane. If it does that will allow you to run the machine until you get the gas fuel situation sorted out. I had one of those engines that would run like that off and on, engine misfiring, puffing black smoke, running very rich exhaust, then it would just straighten up and run correctly. Then one day by pure luck, when it was running rough, I was doing wiggle test on wires, moved the three wires at the connector at the MAP sensor and boom, smoothed right out, wiggled some more, started running rough. Obtained a replacement MAP sensor pigtail and installed it, fixed the problem. That's the problem with gas spark engines, a number of things can make them run bad or not run. I don't think Genie is going to be much help on that problem, it's the Ford engine problem. If you know a good automotive mechanic you might see if you can get them to stop by and take a look at it, automotive mechanics know more about that engine and it's components than Genie does.