Fill dirt "ethics"

[tuney443]

The problem is if people find out that you cheated them, they paid you in good faith on the basis that you had to buy the fill. It may not be illegal but will leave a sour taste in the mouth of both the person you got the fill for and the person you got the fill from. At least if you give both of them a cut then they are less likely to kick up a stink.
However everyone is entitled to run their business in whichever fashion they like but if the phone stops ringing because you are seen as being less than completley honest..........

NO ONE is being cheated here at all,not even close.Price was discussed,it's{hopefully} in writing,it's what's being charged--product is delivered.Everyone should be happy.If the client is bitchin that you were'nt entitled to making so much ''easy'' profit,just remind them that if it was turned the other way---say you now had to pay more from a gravel bank for whatever reason---would they now be willing to pay for that extra cost???

 

[bear]

I would say alot depends on the customer. If it's one youve done work for in the past and has not been a hassle cut them a break. If the customer is a PITA... well see how things go.
The thing to remember especially in smaller areas/towns word gets around both good and bad.

 

[Hendrik]

NO ONE is being cheated here at all,not even close.Price was discussed,it's{hopefully} in writing,it's what's being charged--product is delivered.Everyone should be happy.If the client is bitchin that you were'nt entitled to making so much ''easy'' profit,just remind them that if it was turned the other way---say you now had to pay more from a gravel bank for whatever reason---would they now be willing to pay for that extra cost???

Alright let's say the fill cost quoted is $2000, customer agrees to this and you end up getting the fill for nothing, Customer finds out that you charged him/her 2k for something you got for free. How is he/she going to feel? Cheated? Happy for you?
Especially if you knew at the time of putting the contract together that you could get free fill.
However if you don't itemize the contract it is another story, you budget 2K for fill but end up getting it cheaper, then good for you.
Far as I know if material costs go up that is carried by the customer if you stipulated so on the contract, how do you think all the cost blow outs happen on public works projects. Or do you reckon the contractor sucks up any rise in inputs.

 

[hvy 1ton]

Alright let's say the fill cost quoted is $2000, customer agrees to this and you end up getting the fill for nothing, Customer finds out that you charged him/her 2k for something you got for free. How is he/she going to feel? Cheated? Happy for you?

I would like to make the point that the 2k of dirt isn't free. First off, somebody has to take the time to find the "free" fill. Then, someone has to pay to put it in a truck. And finally, someone has to pay to get trucked into a convenient hole in the ground. Now who pays for what part varies depending on the situation.

For example my family has had many free ponds built, b/c we sit on a big pile of good clay and are strategically placed for most of the large building that has happened in the last 20 years. We own parts of both the Wal-Mart and Target parking lots. Each time the jobs were bid with a much higher trucking cost and then they called us. Its too bad the second Wal-Mart had to export dirt, since I am now smart enough to bring along a camera. Its not like everyone gets their ponds built by a 365 and 6 axle belly dumps!

Here are my thoughts:
Any dirt that has to be moved off site is the excavators, since he paid for all of the factors i listed.

Dirt that has to be located, loaded, and trucked, the customer eats the "loss"

Dirt that has be located and trucked, the customer still eats the "loss".

On the rare chance the excavator finds someone to load and truck the dirt to his job, some deal making is required. Most cost is being eaten by someone else, and if the other guy needs it gone that bad he is probably the one looking for a convenient hole in the ground.

On the even rarer chance the customer finds the fill dirt, uh, it better before the contract is written.

On the flipside, exporting dirt, if the cost of trucking to a preferred location is cost-prohibitive the excavator might have to sell the dirt for a "loss", give it away, or if in a real bind pay to dump it. It works both ways, the bid might be too high if the customer has to eat the extra cost. Especially if another excavator has a cheaper way to export the dirt.

As for the customer's perceived loss, if another excavator did the same job there is no guarantee the other guy would be able to procure the same "free" fill. Its the same principle as the excavator using dirt he had stockpiled from another job. Just b/c the excavator didn't pay for the actual dirt, doesn't make the dirt worth any less. If nothing else, the excavator might owe the source of the dirt a favor. Say, bringing over some scrapers to turn a big hole in the ground into a pond.

Thats just my take on Excavator's Business Ethics 101.

BTW: did you know engineers have to take Ethics classes? I can't wait.:bash

 

[tuney443]

I would like to make the point that the 2k of dirt isn't free. First off, somebody has to take the time to find the "free" fill. Then, someone has to pay to put it in a truck. And finally, someone has to pay to get trucked into a convenient hole in the ground. Now who pays for what part varies depending on the situation.

For example my family has had many free ponds built, b/c we sit on a big pile of good clay and are strategically placed for most of the large building that has happened in the last 20 years. We own parts of both the Wal-Mart and Target parking lots. Each time the jobs were bid with a much higher trucking cost and then they called us. Its too bad the second Wal-Mart had to export dirt, since I am now smart enough to bring along a camera. Its not like everyone gets their ponds built by a 365 and 6 axle belly dumps!

Here are my thoughts:
Any dirt that has to be moved off site is the excavators, since he paid for all of the factors i listed.

Dirt that has to be located, loaded, and trucked, the customer eats the "loss"

Dirt that has be located and trucked, the customer still eats the "loss".

On the rare chance the excavator finds someone to load and truck the dirt to his job, some deal making is required. Most cost is being eaten by someone else, and if the other guy needs it gone that bad he is probably the one looking for a convenient hole in the ground.

On the even rarer chance the customer finds the fill dirt, uh, it better before the contract is written.

On the flipside, exporting dirt, if the cost of trucking to a preferred location is cost-prohibitive the excavator might have to sell the dirt for a "loss", give it away, or if in a real bind pay to dump it. It works both ways, the bid might be too high if the customer has to eat the extra cost. Especially if another excavator has a cheaper way to export the dirt.

As for the customer's perceived loss, if another excavator did the same job there is no guarantee the other guy would be able to procure the same "free" fill. Its the same principle as the excavator using dirt he had stockpiled from another job. Just b/c the excavator didn't pay for the actual dirt, doesn't make the dirt worth any less. If nothing else, the excavator might owe the source of the dirt a favor. Say, bringing over some scrapers to turn a big hole in the ground into a pond.

Thats just my take on Excavator's Business Ethics 101.

BTW: did you know engineers have to take Ethics classes? I can't wait.:bash

Very well said 1ton.Here's a similiar analogy--in our business,we are right out there--large fill piles,big trucks-loaders---it's hard not to notice us.Take any other business--jewelry,supermarket,dentistry,auto parts---do you honestly think any of them would tell the customer/client if they came across free or cheaper parts/supplies that now you'll get a siscount?I don't think so.

 

[Hendrik]

Very well said 1ton.Here's a similiar analogy--in our business,we are right out there--large fill piles,big trucks-loaders---it's hard not to notice us.Take any other business--jewelry,supermarket,dentistry,auto parts---do you honestly think any of them would tell the customer/client if they came across free or cheaper parts/supplies that now you'll get a siscount?I don't think so.

Ooooh the old everybody rips me off and this gives me the right to rip others off.
Anyway as I said, everyone is entitled to run their business anyway they see fit but I do know if I was after some fill and rang up an earthmover and he/she says to me "look I have to buy the fill for X amount" and then I later find out they got it for free I am going to be thinking that operator is a crook who is out to rip people off. Sure I can pass the cost of fill along but I will still think that I have been cheated. That earthmoving contractor might think he/she is pretty smart for doing me over but I may well never give them any business again.
Bottom line is that we all determine the future of our society, we all have to instill values in our children and we all have to live in the mess we create.

 

[tuney443]

Ooooh the old everybody rips me off and this gives me the right to rip others off.
Anyway as I said, everyone is entitled to run their business anyway they see fit but I do know if I was after some fill and rang up an earthmover and he/she says to me "look I have to buy the fill for X amount" and then I later find out they got it for free I am going to be thinking that operator is a crook who is out to rip people off. Sure I can pass the cost of fill along but I will still think that I have been cheated. That earthmoving contractor might think he/she is pretty smart for doing me over but I may well never give them any business again.
Bottom line is that we all determine the future of our society, we all have to instill values in our children and we all have to live in the mess we create.

No Hendrik,I never said anyone's ripping anybody off here--not even close.It's unbelievable that you interpret my post that way.Once again,as long as the product or service was delivered according to either the verbal or written contract,it's NO ONE'S business how much or how little was the cost of goods provided.If you want to give away or discount any fill that comes your way,go ahead--me--in my mind I know there's nothing unethical or immoral about charging the full agreed upon price for the fill.

 

[Hendrik]

No Hendrik,I never said anyone's ripping anybody off here--not even close.It's unbelievable that you interpret my post that way.Once again,as long as the product or service was delivered according to either the verbal or written contract,it's NO ONE'S business how much or how little was the cost of goods provided.If you want to give away or discount any fill that comes your way,go ahead--me--in my mind I know there's nothing unethical or immoral about charging the full agreed upon price for the fill.

So that's what you are going to tell the customer when he/she comes along and says to you that they know you got the fill for free and yet you still charged me for it?
So in theory if a mechanic fixes your machine with sub-standard parts and it only lasts another 200 hours before breaking down again, the mechanic has done nothing wrong because he fulfilled the verbal contract of repairing the machine?

 

[mudmaker]

Unless it is a cost plus project the only numbers my customer sees are his/her cost, not mine. If I can negotiate a better deal on my cost that simply improves my profit. I dont see how that is ripping your customer off. Just my 2cents

 

[mudmaker]

So that's what you are going to tell the customer when he/she comes along and says to you that they know you got the fill for free and yet you still charged me for it?
So in theory if a mechanic fixes your machine with sub-standard parts and it only lasts another 200 hours before breaking down again, the mechanic has done nothing wrong because he fulfilled the verbal contract of repairing the machine?

I dont think you are comparing apples to apples here.

I dont think anyone is saying they are going to use substandard materials to save money.

If that mechanic put a brand new part on your machine that he somehow got for free why should he give it to free?

 

[Hendrik]

Unless it is a cost plus project the only numbers my customer sees are his/her cost, not mine. If I can negotiate a better deal on my cost that simply improves my profit. I dont see how that is ripping your customer off. Just my 2cents

That's right but the original question was in regards to the customer being told that the fill would cost $X to buy.

 

[Steve Frazier]

Hendrik, you've made your point, it's time to move on.

I've known Tuney for a few years now and his business here is reputable, he hasn't stayed in business this long ripping off his customers.

I don't see anything wrong with charging a customer market value for fill whether you've paid anything for it or not.

 

[Hendrik]

I dont think you are comparing apples to apples here.

I dont think anyone is saying they are going to use substandard materials to save money.

If that mechanic put a brand new part on your machine that he somehow got for free why should he give it to free?

Not trying to compare apples with apples but I am trying to understand the thinking behind what makes a contract fair.
What the mechanic has done may not be illegal but it would sure leave a bad taste in your mouth. Obviously there are fair trading laws in place that aim to stop this sort of thing but it still happens, particularly in the auto repair industry.
And everybody seems top be side stepping my question about how YOU would feel if it was you being charged for fill that was obtained free of charge. Obviously the people saying that it is A OK to charge for free fill would have no problem if they where charged for free fill. After all that is what capitalism is all about.
Anyway I'll stick to my original answer, that way I am technically buying the fill and can have a mark up on it of whatever I like and if everything goes smooth I can give the customer a discount at the end. If the customer is a PITA I can always choose not to but the fact remains that I paid for the fill as opposed to getting it for nothing because a mark up of 200% on nothing is still nothing

 

[stock]

Client approaches you with a job to quote for.
Client also approaches two of your opposition.
Tender is open ,your successful.
Deal is made to both your satisfaction.
Third party asks you to excavate and remove a similar amount of Material off site.
A price is negotiated that you are both happy with.
You move material from one site to another and in doing so fulfill both clients expectations.
Do you then try to renegotiate contract one. NOT!.
All I will say is if you do a deal , a tender or a contract where both parties are happy and you fulfill all your requirements, the client is obliged to pay the agreed price.
How many of us have done work where the client tries to renege on the price ,do you consider that right?
In the heel of the hunt we are in business to have a wage/ profit at the end of the day/week /year,to give a good service and do the job we are paid for.

I dont advocate ripping anyone off but neither do I want to be ripped off by a client so if terms are agreed by both parties then that is all that counts,
If you do a job that you priced and the client tell you to do additional work but then refuses to pay you afterwards saying it was part of the scope of works would you be happy .NOT I think.

So in conclusion price a job so as you can do it properly give the client what he wants and try and wind up with a "WIN WIN " contract.:IMO: :my2c

If you want to go broke do it at home its cheaper and less stressful.



Stock

 

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, you've made your point, it's time to move on.

I've known Tuney for a few years now and his business here is reputable, he hasn't stayed in business this long ripping off his customers.

I don't see anything wrong with charging a customer market value for fill whether you've paid anything for it or not.

Yeah OK but I am still puzzled somewhat but I guess it all depends on the wording of the contract. Because it works both ways, what if the price of Diesel spiked 50% the day before you start the contract? If there is no provision in the contract for that then the contractor has to wear that, same with fill cost. What if you put in a low ball figure and all of a sudden the fill supplier says that the price has gone up 50%?
Anyway I am not saying anyone is ripping anyone off but am trying to contribute to what is a fairly relevant topic of discussion.
Just so happens the other day I was helping a friend of the missus prepare a site for his garden shed. I get it all cleared and figure that I need 3 cubic meters of fill to bring it to level. So he gets on the phone to some earthmovers and there is not much going in the area but they suggest we try a new housing development that is being done nearby, of course when we get there the site supervisor has gone for the day and the workers are reluctant to give the OK for a few ute loads of dirt. So I says to him, look I probably got enough back home that I could scratch up (well I got a fair bit but..), he is most happy that I am willing to give him some dirt and yeah I could have charged him 10 or 20 bucks per load and there would have been nothing he could have done about it but he gave me some petrol money and a carton of beer so I didn't lose out completley. However as i am just getting off the ground I need all the good will I can find, word of mouth is a big part of my advertising strategy.
And yes, if this fella was living in a big flash house with an expensive car and looked down on me like I was the dirt that I was shifting, I would have charged for every last grain of dirt even though I was getting it for free from my place.

 

[mudmaker]

And yes, if this fella was living in a big flash house with an expensive car and looked down on me like I was the dirt that I was shifting, I would have charged for every last grain of dirt even though I was getting it for free from my place.

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I just have to say that is the wrong attitude. You should treat everyone the same.

 

[tuney443]

Quote by Hendrik:And yes, if this fella was living in a big flash house with an expensive car and looked down on me like I was the dirt that I was shifting, I would have charged for every last grain of dirt even though I was getting it for free from my place.

Mmmm---who's calling the kettle black here? Your preaching isn't quite the same as your thinking.

 

[Hendrik]

Mmmm---who's calling the kettle black here? Your preaching isn't quite the same as your thinking.

I don't preach, I leave that to the religious types, but am making the point that while I aim to treat everyone fairly (and hope to get the same back:lmao), I am only human and some people do rub me up the wrong way.
Anyway Steve has asked nicely that I move on from this topic and he is right, I made my point.

 

[AusDave]

It all works out in the end

Some jobs you quote on don't work out the way you planned and due to circumstances such as weather, unexpected rock, damage/breakdown etc you don't make much profit on the job at all. But you want to retain the the customers business and trust and therefore your reputation, so you don't hit him up for the additional cost.
The free fill argument is the counterbalance to the above. Sometimes you get a job which unexpectedly works out to your financial benefit better than you quoted, so you take the profit and these good jobs balance out the bad. So overall it evens out and no-one loses and all benefit.

Keep in mind in the retail trade you don't get the retailer telling you he got a product for nothing because he bought a bulk number of products to get a few free thrown in. He's just counterbalancing the unpopular product he got stuck with and had to sell at a loss.

After all if you let one of your customers know you got the fill for free, the word will get around and everyone will expect the fill is free. They won't believe you when you say you had to pay for this lot of fill when Fred up the road got his free.

The customer just wants to be happy with the job at a fair and competitive price and likes to deal with someone who is friendly, trustworthy and does what was promised. He doesn't need to know the details of how you run your finances and business.

Regards Dave

 

[CM1995]

After all if you let one of your customers know you got the fill for free, the word will get around and everyone will expect the fill is free. They won't believe you when you say you had to pay for this lot of fill when Fred up the road got his free.

So true, just remember that "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished".

This is the way that I look at this issue. Excavation, trucking, grading and disposal has value to people in the market or we wouldn't have a profession. When I say value, that means people are willing to spend their hard earned money to hire our services. The finished product, be it cutting out a basement, building a pond, demoing a house, filling a lot etc - is the finished product they are willing to pay for. It is our job to pull our resources together to give them a price that you can competetively complete the task at hand. The price needs to reflect "market value" for all of your services, regardless of whether you are being paid to haul fill off one job and this one needs fill imported.

If someone needs fill, they need it and are willing to pay someone to obtain it - in order to achieve their desired finished product. Same way with removing fill from a job. Irregardless of whether you can actually make these two incidences above line up in your favor (remember Murphy's Law), import and export out should be charged accordingly.