Fiat Allis FR15 transmission shift issue

[MNagel]

Hopefully someone might have a little insight in transmission diagnostics on a Fiat Allis FR-15 loader. It's a 1988 era machine. 4 speed Powershift, the lever shuttle with twist know to switch gears. Lever has been replaced earlier in its life. More often than not, in order it move, the machine needs to be placed in 3rd (or 4th) gear to get moving. Once moving at any speed, it will shift fine into both 1st and 2nd gear. Pressure is consistent on the gauge when put in any gear. Can watch the pressure drop slightly when shifting and goes right back up (both moving and sitting still). It seems the gear shift lever is functioning properly as you can watch the pressure fluctuate each time you switch a gear. It has all the power to the ground you would expect with a solid working transmission, just most of the time it will just sit and not take off in either 1st or 2nd gear from a dead stop. Occasionally it will take off in 1st or 2nd from a stop, and when it does, it is crisp and solid. Anyone happen to have any experience with this issue, or possible ideas from those with past experience on one of these older Fiats? I do have a service manual for the machine, however, the symptom/diagnose section is less than impressive. Greatly appreciate any thoughts. Thanks

 

[1693TA]

If I remember right that had a german "ZF" transmission and the solenoids on the valve block or wiring could be problematic. The solenoid valve body also could have stuck shuttle pistons but the first thing to do thinking the problem is intermittent is to change the fluid, filters, and clean the screen.

I'd do this before the machine won't move at all.

 

[MNagel]

Thank you, I forgot to mention I did just replace the fluid and the filters, didn't effect the intermittent issue. Oil was clean and no debris in the filters. I will start taking a look at the solenoids and make sure the pistons are free. I will see if any of the wiring diagrams show a possible common solenoid that maybe both 1st and 2nd gear share. Thank you for your response.

 

[1693TA]

The shuttle pistons can gum up and stick so fluid maintenance is paramount for a long service life. I'd run some type of cleaner in with the oil for a spell to hopefully get this issue addressed if the problem persists.

Do check your wiring harness and terminations/lands of the harness for chaffing and corrosion. These were not electronic at all but the solenoids route fluid to appropriate clutches for activation and deactivation. Good loaders and quite ruggedly built if maintained.

Don't rule out the selector switch being bad or intermittent either. Meter it while physically moving it around looking for intermittent connections. A high resistance reading on any contact could preclude the solenoids from operating correctly. Seen that a time or two from corrosion or "manhandling" mostly.....

 

[MNagel]

Thank you for your help and ideas, I will start to take a look it the beginning of this week. Does seem like a very solid old loader.

 

[Bigbert]

Hi MNagel,

as far as I remember the FR 15 got a ZF 4WG150 tranny.
There is a clutch cut off function fitted. A pressure switch underneath left brake pedal will cut off pressure from forward clutch in 1st and 2nd from a certain brake pressure. No function in 3rd and 4th.
Possibly this switch gets stuck when activated once and comes back with virbrations.
Interested in any operators manual for ZF 4WG 150? Confirm tranny type and let me know.

 

[1693TA]

They were a large part of my "coming up" years ago. Had hopes to be employed at the plant full time but was not to be.

Hi MNagel,

as far as I remember the FR 15 got a ZF 4WG150 tranny.
There is a clutch cut off function fitted. A pressure switch underneath left brake pedal will cut off pressure from forward clutch in 1st and 2nd from a certain brake pressure. No function in 3rd and 4th.
Possibly this switch gets stuck when activated once and comes back with virbrations.
Interested in any operators manual for ZF 4WG 150? Confirm tranny type and let me know.

This switch function is true and I'd forgot to mention that. Firm service brake application kicked the transmission out of drive to allow accelerating the engine to speed bucket elevation/dumping in first, or second gear.

That transmission model sounds correct from memory.

If only memory was what it used to be.....

 

[MNagel]

Hi MNagel,

as far as I remember the FR 15 got a ZF 4WG150 tranny.
There is a clutch cut off function fitted. A pressure switch underneath left brake pedal will cut off pressure from forward clutch in 1st and 2nd from a certain brake pressure. No function in 3rd and 4th.
Possibly this switch gets stuck when activated once and comes back with virbrations.
Interested in any operators manual for ZF 4WG 150? Confirm tranny type and let me know.

Thank you for your information, I'll have to double check I do or do not have the correct transmission book in the pile of manuals I received when we purchased the machine. Someone prior to myself jumped the switch on the right hand side brake valve with a jumper wire. I did, right or wrong, take the 2 leads off the left brake pedal and jumped them together with no change. Not sure if it would or if it was even the switch you are referring to, I will look around closer as to what is there. Sounds like that may easily cause the symptoms this loader is having. Thanks much!

 

[MNagel]

They were a large part of my "coming up" years ago. Had hopes to be employed at the plant full time but was not to be.

This switch function is true and I'd forgot to mention that. Firm service brake application kicked the transmission out of drive to allow accelerating the engine to speed bucket elevation/dumping in first, or second gear.

That transmission model sounds correct from memory.

If only memory was what it used to be.....

I have been sold on these machines, as well as a few other brands for years. Worked as a mechanic for Caterpillar in my younger years. Spent a fair amount of time on a Fiat 745 stacking broken concrete in a huge pile to be crushed. What it lacked in brakes it made up for in brute power hahaha. No fault of the brakes, just the owner didn't feel it was any priority to fix them. Appreciate all you guy's imput and knowledge with this loader. Hopefully in a few days I'll be back in my shop to dig deeper into it! Thanks again!

 

[1693TA]

I always felt Allis Chalmers had what it took in the "45" series of loaders meaning a good balance of power, weight, and agility. Allis engines were usually reliable IMO. Pretty easy to work on too but any of the loaders were cramped inside. They were built in Deerfield, IL and we would see them in Springfield from time to time for local delivery or custom work. Eventually Deerfield was shuttered and loaders were built in
Springfield but I was gone by then. Your loader would have been produced in Italy IIRC as Springfield was shuttered in 1985.

Would love to have a nice "545", or FR-12 with an Allis engine myself, but really no need; just another want.

My 11B tractor is most likely one I drove from the staging area to the south shipping yard for loading back in May, 1976. I remember driving two 11B tractors shipping to El-Paso, IL and the timeline matches up seemingly perfect. Tractors built in 75, shipping in 76 to a small dealer after being ready for them. The original purchaser and I have spoken and they took delivery in early June, 1976 after dealer prep.

 

[MNagel]

Just following up on my Fiat Allis FR15 loader issue, turned out to be the torpedo fuse that is in-line going up to the shift lever. Was using the loader to move some parts around and it kicked out of 3rd gear and would no longer move, no matter what I tried to do. Started tracking down the wiring harness and found the fuse hidden under the sleeve that protects the wires. Took it apart and the fuse link had detached from one end and apparently was able to make connection some of the time, but not all the time. I really do not still understand why it would allow originally being able to take off moving from 3rd or 4th gear and not 1st or 2nd, but after replacing that fuse, everything worked as it should. Appreciate everyone's advise and ideas. Thanks much!

 

[Bigbert]

Hi MNagel,

thank you for positive feedback. This is exactly what many members usually are missing. Most of the members like to learn and to collect experience.
Good luck with the baby.