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Fiat Allis 16B

Discussion in 'Dozers' started by sfchovis, Jun 4, 2012.

  1. sfchovis

    sfchovis Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2012
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Shoals, Indiana
    Hello Gentleman,

    I recently purchased a Fiat Allis 16B. I had read up on it quite a bit and understand some of the concern about parts and the cost of them but this one seemed to be a great deal and in good shape. A dealer had looked at it twice and wasn't concerned about the machine at all. I bought it for 300.00 more than he offered (7500.00). All it really needed right away was the brakes adjusted and the dealer told me how to do that.

    Now for my real question. It has a lot more power in reverse than forward( based on climbing). To me, this seems like a easily solved problem but what and where to look is where I am lost. Can someone help me out here.

    Also, any information about fluids (what to use, where to check/fill, etc) would be greatly appreciated. I have yet to put it to good use until I go through everything better. Heck, I don't even know where the grease goes so I would like to start out on the right foot. Any and all information will be greatly appreciated.

    thanks
    Hovis
     
  2. Scrub Puller

    Scrub Puller Senior Member

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    Yair . . . sfchovis. I don't quite understand what you mean by "more power in reverse than forward based on climbing". It would help if we knew what you were doing, how the tractor is equipped and why this is a problem.

    Cheers
     
  3. sfchovis

    sfchovis Active Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    Hope I can explain this a little better.

    1. The dozer will peel more dirt in reverse with the back of the blade than in forward. I am not digging the bladeto much while going forward either.

    2. When driving over/climbing a straight up embankment that was 2 ft or so tall. It will not do it in forward but will go right over in reverse without slowing down.

    Hovis
     
  4. D6 Merv

    D6 Merv Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    Self employed bulldozing contractor with a D6D D4E
    Location:
    Coromandel Peninsula. New Zealand
    Wont climb it in 1st or 2nd forward ; should do it in either. Pull floor plates and watch the drive shaft. If tractor won,t climb in one gear try the next.
    What your looking for is if the tractor stops moving so should the drive shaft. Check in both gears fwd and rev.
    if driveshaft keeps spinning but tractor stops in that particular gear. That clutch is slipping. Is a seperate clutch to engage for each gear, plus the modulating clutch in the converter. But if its stuffed, will be no drive in any gears.
    Suspect 1st forward might be stuffed and maybe 2nd too if they tried to keep her working.
    Either way you are going to learn about the joys of owning and fixing crawlers !
     
  5. sfchovis

    sfchovis Active Member

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    Location:
    Shoals, Indiana
    I'll check out the driveshaft. What do you mean by the clutches being stuffed. Also, why would it climb in reverse but not forward? Not the same clutches? Sorry for being ignorant about this.

    Hovis
     
  6. D6 Merv

    D6 Merv Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    Self employed bulldozing contractor with a D6D D4E
    Location:
    Coromandel Peninsula. New Zealand
    Hovis. a different clutch pack is used to engage each gear. ie 4 diffferent packs, 1 each for F1 F2 R1 R2.
    R 1 and 2 are probably ok F1 and maybe 2 are slipping ie turning driveshaft; but stationery tractor. When shaft locks up with tractor stationery in that particular gear [known as torque converter stall] that clutch is ok. Stuffed means slipping clutchs ie $ - transmission rebuild, new plates etc. But usually do a pressure check and check the fwd oil collector rings first before pulling trans. Also check the filters and suction screens for any signs of debris.
    Might be good idea to look for some manuels for it too.
     
  7. nutwood

    nutwood Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    Tasmania
    Do you mean the engine bogs down and tries to stall when you're going forward up the bank or does the machine just stop going forward, but the engine keeps going?
     
  8. Scrub Puller

    Scrub Puller Senior Member

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    Yair . . . Hovis. D6 Merv's #6 post sums it up exactly right.

    On that tractor the side ways movement of the stick selects the clutch-pack in the tranny that is to say:- first or second forward or reverse. Four identical but seperate packs (from memory).

    The back and forth movement of the stick engages/disengages a seperate and larger clutch pack between the engine and the torque converter.

    It was a fairly simple setup but gave a lot of trouble in the early twenty ones and sixteens. By the time of your machine I think they had it sorted.
    As with every thing though things wear out . . . if you are going to get into it you will definately need a manual.

    Cheers.
     
  9. D6 Merv

    D6 Merv Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    Self employed bulldozing contractor with a D6D D4E
    Location:
    Coromandel Peninsula. New Zealand
    Hi scub puller
    Assume you had HD21P and 16DP models, what problems did you have with them ? I take it you were chaining with them ?
    Always liked AC stuff and thought they had some good ideas; they sold alot of there crawlers down here. Used to be a couple of HD21A models around my part, and some 11EPs and is still alot of HD6s here. Even got a 6ep myself.
    Cheers Merv
     
  10. sfchovis

    sfchovis Active Member

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    Location:
    Shoals, Indiana
    The dozer just stops moving. No engine bog down. Would low fluid cause this? The reason I am thinking is that there what seems to be a small leak under the seat in one of the bigger hoses that runs from the left side to the right side (two hoses together). I have a friend that had one of these many years ago (when they were new) and he mentioned something about checking the fluid while the dozer was in forward 2 with the brakes on. Does this sound familiar. I did not check it this way, I checked the stick with the dozer off and the fluid was just in the normal range. Also, is there two different fluids used in the torque/transmission/rear area? Also, the dealer that looked at it mentioned adjusting the clutches and brakes, I adjusted the brakes and they are great now, only took 1/4 turn. Where are the clutches adjusted?

    Sorry for sounding all over the place. I just find it odd that a leak has appeared and the dozer could pull itself up on the trailer carefree to be delivered and now it wouldn't be able to load itself the same way. I'm thinking it might be something simple. Where are these collector rings and screens at.

    thanks a million.

    Hovis
     
  11. HD21A

    HD21A Well-Known Member

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    Occupation:
    Manage and operate family farm
    Location:
    Chillicothe, Ohio
    Have a dozer family locally, AC dozers for 2 generations, has 11 and 16B, both power shift. Chris said when they got the 11, had a rebuilt transmission, end of the year, forward clutch pack weak, they rebuilt it. Shift plates were burnt. 2nd year, forward shift parks burnt again, need a new set. At the start of the second replacement he found the problem. The hydraulic hose going to the forward pack, had a smaller inside diameter than the hose going to the rear pack. The forward pack was getting less volume flow and pressure than the rear pack and was slipping as compared to the rear pack. Replaced with new hose, same size as reverse, problems solved. I don't have a power shift machine, just passing this story along because it is something some one might think about when doing pressure checks. I have 2 ACHD21As in good condition which are straight transmissions. One comment about clutches and brakes. My machine has wet clutches, they run in oil. If you need to do a turn to reposition, do it at low speed and even then, then brakes might grab. If I have to do a turn in a power push, I do it with clutch , brakes won't be needed.

    Bob Ohio
     
  12. nutwood

    nutwood Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    I'd reckon D6 Merv is spot on. I'd be shopping for a manual!
     
  13. sfchovis

    sfchovis Active Member

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    Location:
    Shoals, Indiana
    Have service manual on the way. Does anyone know where the collector rings and screens are at?

    Did a little testing last night. The dozer in reverse, I can dig the blade in and spin the tracks but in forward, it will not push, it will drive ok but as soon as you dig the blade in it stops. It seems like you can feel something slipping underneath the seat/floorboard. I would have to agree that the clutches are probably gone but as soon as the manuals come in, we'll look into it futher. Would like to test the hydraulic pressure (don't know how or with what) and the screens etc before I think about tearing into it. How big of job is changing the clutches? Does the dozer have to be pulled into or is everything accessible from under the floor board or from the back.

    I was also told by someone who operated these back in the day, that the clutch levers should disengage the clutch with just an inch or so of movement. These levers will pull all the way down and then the dozer will slow to a stop.

    HD21 - Can you ask your friend where he got the clutches at. Or does anyone know a good source for these parts I might need.

    thanks
    Hovis
     
  14. Scrub Puller

    Scrub Puller Senior Member

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    Yair . . . D6 Merv. We possibly had the first three 21p's to land in Oz. and they were a bloody disaster and I can hardly think of one part of those tractors that didn't break.

    Admittedly chaining is the hardest work you can ask a tractor to do but those rotten things bloody nearly broke us. When I say "us" I didn't own them, was just a worker but when the boss is a good bloke and does the right thing by you you sort of get involved in the situation.

    We had proven the concept of pulling with three tractors and when the power-shifts came out he went out on a limb and bought three and it was just as well . . . you needed three to keep two going.

    Thats the problem with pulling, if one tractor goes down the cash flow stops. There is only so much fence line clearing and what all you can talk a cocky into even at special rates.

    As you say Allis had some good ideas. The last series of 21's before the power shifts were an excellent machine.

    They had the oil (not fuel) converter and oil arse end that was pretty much was trouble free . . . and a beautifull front mounted PCU that I think went close to ten thousand hours without being touched. Untill you got the hang of it it was pretty hard on ropes.

    The finals were always the problem though. Top pinions, bull gears, outboard bearings. Some of our blokes got pretty good and with a couple of handy off-siders one feller in particular could get the track off, pop the sprocket and pretty much rebuild one overnight.

    Cheers.

    P.S. Hovis. If you have to work on that tranmission mate, you'll have to lift it out.
     
  15. hd16b

    hd16b Active Member

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    Occupation:
    Farmer by name and trade
    Location:
    Stokes, NC
    your friend was correct that you check the trans oil level with the trans in second gear foward and with the lever all the way back blade down so it wont roll.Sounds like your foward cluthes are for sure slipping.Give me a call at 252 916 2927 and i will guide you throug a few checks.
     
  16. HD21A

    HD21A Well-Known Member

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    Occupation:
    Manage and operate family farm
    Location:
    Chillicothe, Ohio
    Sfchovis Here is the local area source of Allis Fiat parts, Columbus Ohio http://www.craneandtractor.com/default.htm

    They have been in business a long time and were once major area suppliers of AC Equipment for Ohio coal fields and construction equipment.

    Scrub Puller, my 21s are the last of the oil converter series. A local private land cleared started with HD20s and went to 21s. He would buy up used 21s and rebuild one to new condition. He got so old he could'nt run them. His last project was a 21p which he never ran , had new tracks, sprockets, rollers. It was a show piece. His son would start it up so he could hear it run. He cautioned me, this is a different machine, keep the older 21s, less problems. Everything sold at auction after his death, and auction day every one thought I would buy it. I watched it sell and the new owner bought a suprise package. It had never been field tested, power shift problems and eventually blew the engine. They got about 3 months of use from it. Have plenty of clearing work on the farm and will never wear the 2 good 21s out.

    Bob Ohio
     
  17. sfchovis

    sfchovis Active Member

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    Location:
    Shoals, Indiana
    HD16b

    Thank you, what would be the best time to call? Today is my aniversary so I probably won't get a chance to call today/tonight because if I did, the meaning of splitting the dozer in half would change a little :).

    I was looking at the parts manual I got for the 16B and it looks to me to only show two clutches but maybe I'm looking at it wrong. If I have to lift this transmission out to do the job. Would a backhoe be a safe way to do it? I do have a barn and some "I" beam steel that I could make a lift but I don't have the raising/lifting mechanism. The service/repair manuals are on their way.

    thanks
    Hovis
     
  18. HD21A

    HD21A Well-Known Member

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    Occupation:
    Manage and operate family farm
    Location:
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    Hovis They are open 8 to 5 EST. Maybe open Sat? I have never worked on a 16 and nothing major on my HD21s. I have a Case 850 back hoe which would pick or drag most parts off my 21, except the engine. To be safe, engine pull would need a track hoe or a wrecker with a jib boom. One area person dropped a 21 engine off a hoe and there was some major bottom pan damage to the engine.

    Bob
     
  19. Scrub Puller

    Scrub Puller Senior Member

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    Yair . . . HD21A. I hear you about those oil converter 21's.

    As I said in the post up thread the first of the P's were a bloody disaster . . . starting with those Farr-Pamic air cleaners.

    In our conditions we would only get a few hours out of them before they were pulling red and you couldn't really clean the rotten things. In 1970's dollars I believe the elements were over fifty bucks a piece and we were working the tractors for thirty seven dollars an hour!

    The thing is with those 21P's while they were going there was nothing their equal. For us blokes who ended up with callus's from the
    tips of our thumbs to the tips of our index fingers from the shifter, they did (when we sorted some of the problems) draw a bit of grudging respect.

    Cheers.
     
  20. td25c

    td25c Senior Member

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    5,251
    Location:
    indiana
    Congratulations on your 16-B purchase Hovis.They are a nice tractor but not to many of them around anymore.About the transmission problem ,pull the front cover off the shifter tower and make sure the detent valves are working accordingly with the shifter knob.About 10 years ago I was on a clearing job with our 16-B and all the sudden lost all forward gears,reverse worked fine so we backed her on the lowboy & hauled it to the shop.Ended up finding a bearing bad on the forward countershaft,it's on the right hand side.The bearing retainer is also the hydraulic manifold for hi & low side forward on the transmission.So when the bearing went out the manifold still holds the shaft in place but takes out the sealing rings causing the no forward gear condition.


    I would pull the belly pans and give it a good power worshing then pull the bearing retainer / manifold to check the bearing and rings.The transmission has an inspection cover on the bottom,drain all the oil then pull it and you will find the suction screen.Transmission filter is located under a cover on right hand side of the seat.Rear frame screen is on the left hand side of the engine.I use "tractor fluid" in the transmission and rear frame,90 wt in the finals.We were able to replace the bearing without pulling the transmission.Good luck with the 16-B Hovis.


    Forgot to mention that I get most parts for the 16-B at www.minnpar.com
     

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    Last edited: Jun 7, 2012