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Ever blade backwards?

Discussion in 'Motor Graders' started by Fat Dan, Jan 30, 2020.

  1. 20/80

    20/80 Senior Member

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    Interesting, I have often turned the mouldboard around as a training exercise for some guy's in the department that are getting the grader course, a lot of them don't realize the blade is turned till they do their pre trips, but the purpose is to get them use to the levers, move the pin, side shifting, rotating the blade and eye to hand coordination, I have never turned the blade to grade or ditch a road, I would be turned around and half way back down the road ditching before you moved the pin side shifted and rotated the blade 360 and re positioned it on the road again only to put it back in the proper position again to fix your mess on the shoulder, not saying it doesn't have a purpose and would like to keep a open mind.
     
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  2. cuttin edge

    cuttin edge Senior Member

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    Do you have mean turning the mold board backwards, and then driving forward
     
  3. JPV

    JPV Senior Member

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    I had a stretch of road that had a really nasty wet clay ditch that needed to be pulled. I thought about Randy Kreigs post and decided to try and pull it backwards to keep the drive tires out of the mess and also to see if I could do it. It worked great and wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. I haven't found many occasions to turn the moldboard around in 15 years of running grader, mostly just do it to show off to people who don't know much about graders!
     
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  4. ovrszd

    ovrszd Senior Member

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    Not familiar with Cat graders so bear with me. Can you explain what pin you are moving?
     
  5. tinnerjohn

    tinnerjohn Member

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    Yes. I was thinking that with the mould board backwards it would not have a tendency to cut and create less mess. I might try it in the yard to see what happens. Right now, between the frost coming out and frequent rain, normal grading will make soup that will need a lot of stone. John
     
  6. cuttin edge

    cuttin edge Senior Member

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    I think he means the high lift pin
     
  7. cuttin edge

    cuttin edge Senior Member

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    you would have to be really careful. The blade is not designed to take a lot of pressure that way. One thing to turn it backwards and back up, or backdrag a bit of lose material. Just don't dig or catch anything hard
     
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  8. ovrszd

    ovrszd Senior Member

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    Again, excuse my ignorance. What's the high lift pin? o_O
     
  9. cuttin edge

    cuttin edge Senior Member

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    On the picture of your dash, under the park brake light the pinlock symbol so you can ditch or do back slopes
     
  10. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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    If the blade was never designed to be used backwards in ANY situation why does it? Does it specifically say in the owners manual "Do not to use the blade backwards"? It's not for changing the cutting edges. That's not even how Cat recommends changing cutting edges. If that was the case it would be the most elaborate and expensive provision ever put on a machine to simplify maintenance. I did notice on a small LeeBoy grader the circle ring doesn't have teeth all the way around which definitely limits how far the blade can turn. Just because a lot of operators haven't used or felt the need to use the blade backwards doesn't it can't be done.
     
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  11. DB2

    DB2 Senior Member

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    For the record Welder Dave how do they recommend changing the edges? We have our own technique but I don’t remember seeing anything in the operators manual. Kind of curious now.
    Thanks
     
  12. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    The pin being talked about is the ring in front of the cab that stands vertically. There are two pins that can be pulled using air pressure and it allows the lift cylinders to index in different places. If you want to bring the blade out from under the strong back of the grader you pull the pins and then push the right side cylinder down while picking the left lift cylinder up. This allows that ring to turn on the circle. You also need to shift the slope cylinder all the way to the right. Once you have the pins aligned in the highest hole for the right side and the lowest hole for the left side you lock them in. Now you can pickup the right side of the blade and rotate it at the same time, taking some skill to not hook the right front drive tire as you extend the left side lift cylinder. You usually have to slide the blade in the carriage at the same time to clear the right front drive and not drop the other end of the blade into the right front steer tire. I've done it hundreds of times as part of the inspection process or for changing cutting edges and repairing the blade carrier. It takes me about five minutes per cycle. I've known about half a dozen individuals that can do it as fast as I can and I've had multiple people do damage trying it without someone to guide them through it the first several times till they understand all the motions. As was stated above, it's far easier to turn around and go the other way.
    You can't find out from what someone has written in a book everything that can be done and you probably shouldn't be telling professionals what can or can't be done when you have never set foot in something.
     
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  13. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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    This is what I received from an experienced operator who doesn't want to be dragged into this thread. He seems very credible and has nothing to gain. Just stating his opinion.

    That's right...and his argument gets blown out the window with that when the correct way of changing cutting edges as per operator manuals is to chock blade up on the ground and square to the frame..not that anyone does that..but anyway lol.
    Randy Kreig is the grader operator's grader operator..He knows his stuff. I have the application guide he did with Don Hess. He also had a role in the development of the H series..He got to bring the first 24H out for show and tell. The only time Randy would loose me is if the Cat marketing spiel was getting too much but that was rare..
     
  14. John C.

    John C. Senior Member

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    Randy can speak for himself. Apparently you can only name drop and spout inanities.
     
  15. Queenslander

    Queenslander Senior Member

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    The point I was trying to make in my previous post was, if anything, shouldn’t it be a little easier on the machine with the board turned and the grader pulling in reverse?
    In normal forward operation the entire draft of the machine is absorbed through those four bolts that hold the drawbar to the frame.
    In reverse, the frame is pushing the drawbar.
    Not that I would grade in reverse more than once in every blue moon, but I can’t see it harming the machine at all.
     
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  16. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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    Randy did speak for himself and posted pictures and detailed explanations and apparently you can't except that either.
    Randy was employed by Caterpillar as a Motor Grader Product Evaluation Engineer along with Don Hess. He also went out with the very first 24H to demonstrate and train operators. Do you really think Cat would send some hack out with their very first 24H worth 1 mil+. He also has patents on graders. There is 90 years of experience alone with just the 3 people listed below who worked on Caterpillar graders. If that's not good enough for you, then sorry I can't help you. Nobody can! Being in denial because you've never done it or don't think it should be done doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. I don't think you have to be an operator to be able to tell who knows what they are talking about. Next your going to say an excavator bucket can never be turned around for odd applications. Funny you haven't disputed that motorcycles had a 24 hour race when temps. reached below -40C. Yeah, I posted that too. Does that make it false? Quit looking for fault just because I posted something trying to help someone with an inquiry.

    About The Authors
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    Phil Newberry Phil was in the construction industry for 20 years prior to joining Caterpillar. As a private contractor from 1978 to 1988, his experience covered all phases of construction, from site clearing to laying asphalt. He then worked for a contractor as an Operations Supervisor, overseeing projects from beginning to end, with a focus on motor grader operations. In August 1998 Phil joined Caterpillar as Product Evaluation Engineer, working on the Tier 2 H Series Program, the K Series Program, and the M Series and M Series 2 Motor Grader Programs. He is presently employed as a Motor Grader Market Development Engineer at Caterpillar in Decatur, Illinois.
    Randy Krieg Randy operated motor graders and heavy equipment for over 20 years and is a member of the International Union of Operating Engineers. In the summer of 1973 he started working at the family business, Krieg Construction Co., as a stake chaser for finish grading work. The following summer his grandfather and father started his operator training on scrapers and motor graders. After graduating from high school in 1976, he spent 6 1⁄2 years operating full-time for the family business. In 1983 he moved to Alaska. There he spent 14 years operating Cat Motor Graders on highway, airport, and erosion control projects for Wilder Construction Co. and Rogers and Bablar Inc. He was employed at Caterpillar in Decatur, Illinois, as a Motor Grader Product Evaluation Engineer until 1997 when he returned to Alaska.
    Don Hess Don Hess operated heavy equipment for more than 50 years, and motor graders since 1950. Don began his career operating equipment for a number of contractors in the Eastern and Midwestern areas of the United States. He joined Caterpillar in the late 1950’s spending time in sales development and 5 years as a machine applications representative in California. He spent 36 years with the company, retiring May 1, 1995. From 1970 to 1995, Don was a Product Evaluation Engineer. During that time, he was instrumental in helping to develop the Cat G and H Series Motor
     
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  17. Welder Dave

    Welder Dave Senior Member

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  18. DB2

    DB2 Senior Member

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    Well there you have it.
    Well represented Dave !
     
  19. 20/80

    20/80 Senior Member

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    Interesting stuff and some good write ups on this subject, well I can't speak for Deere but as for the new Cat's they have a hard time keeping together going forward let alone trying to grade in reverse.
     
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  20. cuttin edge

    cuttin edge Senior Member

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    Seems to be a hot topic. I have already given my opinion on the subject.... Never said it's right or wrong, I don't do it, never had need to. Tinnerjohn was talking about turning the blade around and grading with the back of the blade. Don't know about other brands, but my Volvo has expensive plastic bushings that are kept out of the crap because the material is pushed with the face of the blade, regardless of the direction the blade faces. I am guilty of occasionally back dragging a bit of extra material, but would never cut with the back of the cutting edge. I have a mid mount scarifier, the only way I can turn my blade backwards, is to use the high lift. Yes Queenslander, I've often thought that ball and socket is pretty strong, but So far I have never broke one. Like to see how big one is on a 24 Cat. Truth be told is this. 90% of the time, I'm fine grading for asphalt. The tool I use is in front of me, the grades I follow are in front of me. The surface I'm grading is in front of me. I see with my eyes and feel with my ass in the seat. Turning my blade around is not something I would do
     
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